Daytona overheating conundrum-help!

You could have more than one thing going on but I would start with checking out the reason the fans didn't run when you overheated the first time.

 

Check fuse and temp switch for fans and if you don't already have one, run a return line back to the tank for the fuel line. This allows the heatsoaked fuel to recirculate back to the tank and supply fresh cool fuel to the engine.

 

I agree with 2NA, first find out why the fans are not coming on. Second the you should not have more than 20 degrees difference in water temp from the top of the radiator to the bottom (running at max power). The only way I can see getting more than that is if something is clogged and preventing the water from circulating. Because of the size difference in the passages, it is extremely unlikely the blockage is anywhere but the radiator, so that is the most likely cause. I prefer to get the radiator rodded out, most shops do not do this anymore but I have not had any luck with the other methods. The next most likely cause is the lower radiator hose collapsing. After that I would say the next most likely issue is leaving a protective plug in place when changing the water pump out (or any other part of the cooling system). The block is the least likely cause in my opinion. Most engines have plugs in the block that can be removed to drain the coolant. If you want, you can remove them to check how much crud is in there.

Cheers Jim

 

Please, respectfully fill in your in your profile and you will just be amazed at the response.

 

What he said.

 

Just to clarify, was the starter motor engaging and turning the motor over? If not, then look at body and electrical grounds, and the condition of the battery and connections. Old ground connections have a bad habit of loosing contact upon heavy load such as starting a warm motor. Again if the starter motor was not turning the motor as it should, try a current draw meter (Amprobe)on lead from the battery to the solinoid. See how many amps the starter is drawing, genraly a worn starter will draw excessive current when trying to start a hot motor. Grounds are the most overlooked connection in vehicles that are not used as a daily driver. It's amazing how many volts you can loose at various connections. A couple of volts here and a couple there and now you only have 6-7 volts at the starter.

Todays fuel is much thinner than when carb'd cars were in use. Because fuel injected cars use pressure to force the fuel through the system up to the injectors and back to the tank, they can thin the fuel out or further crack the petroleum to make it go farther, more gallons per barrel, more profit for the oil barrons. Also fuel under pressure will have a much higher boiling point. There are a couple of ways to help with the vapor locking or fuel boiling.

I have a 1915 Packard 12 cylinder limosine that has the same problems. I added a fuel return line back to the tank. Now this will take some expiermentation to restrict the returning fuel so you do not run the float bowls dry. I finally solved this by adding a fuel pressure regulator in the return line. This allowed me to keep enough fuel the the float bowl to drive the car. I expiermented with various pressures, and out side temps until I got the correct setting.

A less time consuming fix is to add either diesel fuel or Marvel Mystery Oil to the fuel tank. This will take some expiermentation as well, too much additive and the car will smoke, to little and you will still boil the gas in the float bowls, and of course you will have to add each time you fill the tank.

As a side bar Phil Hill had 2 Packard Twin Six Limos in fact one of his was his Aunt's limo that brought home from the hospital when he was born. Anyway I did the same fix for his Packards and he was finally able to drive them around Pasadena in the hot weather with no problems.

Howard Musolf
1981 308gtsi
1982 400i Cabriolet
1988 Lotus Esprit Turbo
1920's-30's Indy cars
2 many brass era cars

 

I have no 12 cyl but this sounds like a problem I had with another car. Turned out to be a stuck thermostat. Didn't allow water to get to the radiator to circulate. The heat traveled to the top of the radiator but not far enough to trip the fan switch (bottom of radiator) which wouldn't have helped anyway since water wasn't circulating. Also an older car with an old thermostat. I know you tested it but perhaps it binds when installed or perhaps installed incorrectly. No disrespect to your ability meant.

 

Hi Ken,

Very interesting problem you have here!

I think the hot side of the coolant is usually sent to the upper part of a radiator and the cooled-down liquid exits at the bottom. With such a big difference between upper and lower temperatures in the radiator one must suspect a clogged radiator (first) or a failed pump or blocked or air-locked return (second).

Bear in mind that the test you carried out (water flowing through radiator with ease) doesn't necessarily mean the entire radiator is flowing cleanly. Perhaps one or two cores are well free and the balance clogged? Can you IR temp check top to bottom, left to right, and maybe find anomalies? As regards coolant pump, could you temporarily replace sections of pipe with something clear so you can see what's going on?

Also, is air lock in the system somewhere a possibility?

 

Are you absolutely certain that the thermostat is opening and the water pump impeller is turning?

What year Daytona do you have? The later cars have the thermostat located outside the engine. Could it be installed backwards?
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It's possible that you have a head gasket leak or a cracked cylinder. Check it with a leakdown tester and look for bubbles in the coolant.

I've seen impellers come loose or shear off before. If it isn't turning, the coolant won't circulate very well (convection does a little).

 

I like Tim's thought that something has sheared off, and, even though the WP impeller still seems to spin with the engine, it is only being driven weakly by friction rather than more positively (Your radiator not reaching operating temperature, but the engine overheating, lowers the probabilty for a head gasket problem IMO).

Won't say that it will be easy to find a local retail source for a small amount of this stuff like this, but clear, reinforced tubing like this is typically used on manufacturing equipment to give a visual indication of flow (the temperature rating for this particular hose is a little low for this use, but just wanted to show as an example):

http://www.toyox.co.jp/english/sangyo/toyoron.html

Hose #22 exiting the bottom of the thermostat housing would be a good one to confirm that it has a lot of flow after cold start-up and no flow with warm engine (which confirms that the thermostat is opening the path to the radiator AND closing the bypass return path, as Jim mentioned later). Likewise, Hose #7 entering the top of the radiator should be the exact opposite behavior.

Don't see any reason that you couldn't connect a garden hose to where hose #22 joins the lower radiator hose and see how much comes out the (open) bottom of the thermostat housing (doesn't prove that water is reaching everywhere inside the engine, but, if it was seriously blocked with little flow, that would be bad sign for sure -- and, if this seemed to flow well using the garden hose, but the clear hose test showed minimal (cold) flow in Hose #22 with everything buttoned up that would be a bad sign for the water pump function).

Just some random thoughts...

 

Your thermostat housing #55 appears to have a large bypass, did you replace the thermostat with a new one that does not blank off the bypass when the thermostat opens?

You can check to see if the water pump is pumping pretty easily by starting a COLD engine with the radiator cap off (do not pull the cap off of a hot engine) and waiting for it to warm up enough to open the thermostat. Note it feels like it takes for ever for the water to warm up, but after it has been up to temp for awhile the thermostat will open. When it does you can see the water moving around in the radiator.

Cheers Jim

 

For what it's worth, here are some general ideas...

Strictly speaking, "boiling" is a pressure phenomenon, not directly a temperature phenomenon.......So, are you 100% sure that the fuel is actually getting "hot" and then boiling, or could it possibly be getting aerated from a different problem (e.g., bad fuel pump causing cavitation) related to the delivery system ? I guess my question is, is the fuel really boiling or is it just that it has air bubbles in it ? (No offense, and I don't mean to contradict you, as I do recognize you said "boiling" 2X )

Good --- you have an IR thermometer --- I'll get back to that in a minute

In addition to a pressure / leak check, did they also check it for flow / delivery (i.e., did they assure you that it has no obstructions) ? A totally blocked radiator will still test "good" in a pressure test.

As, MIURA (Jim) has already said..... Are you 100% sure that the "correct" t-stat is installed, and oriented correctly ? You may also want to rerun that test, with a thermometer in the bath, so you have an accurate indication of at what temp the t-stat is opening. Most engine cooling systems are fairly sensitive to whether the stat is opening at say 160 / 180 / 200 / 220 degrees ---- it is a good idea to be more accurate here, and compare the test result more closely to the proper specification.

I wish I could say that your guess is wrong....but, I tend to agree with you that it is very suspicious that either the block, or more likely one / both of the heads, may indeed have a blockage / partial obstruction somewhere. You could also have a blockage somewhere else in the circuit --- radiator, hoses, fittings, etc.

The reality is that old engines (especially alloy ones) build up crud over time, even if they are well maintained. And, if that engine has never been apart and thoroughly cleaned out, well, that crud is still in there.

A quick pressure check is easy, and smart, to rule out a head gasket failure or other serious leakage problem (e.g., a crack somewhere). And, as others have already suggested some very good ways to check for flow problems, but those methods require a good deal of effort and assembly / dis-assembly.

I would suggest first, as an easier way to get some meaningful diagnostic info, that you bring the car up to operating temperature (assuming you feel it is safe to do so) ----- then use your IR thermometer to take a comprehensive survey of temps. all over the system (block, heads, radiator, hoses, t-stat / water pump housing, etc., etc., etc.). Look for unusually "cold" and unusually "hot" spots ---- these are often good indicators that you have a flow problem (as from an obstruction) near that location. If you have verified that the water pump & t-stat are doing their jobs as they properly should, an obstruction is really the last, and reasonable, possibility.

I'm also sorry to say --- No --- there really is not a better way. Regular "flushing" does next to nothing and "aggressive / power flushing" is bad news for these (exotic, Italian) engines as it tends to cause more problems than it solves ---- I don't know of any of the experts (Dave Helms, for instance) who recommend flushing in any fashion on these engines ---- too risky. I've witnessed a lot of bad results from it, myself as well. Tear down, clean thoroughly, re-assemble ---- is the way you want to go with something as precious as a Daytona engine.

Good luck ---- I hope it turns out to be something easy / cheap / fast <fingers crossed>

 

How did you confirm this? Likey the collapse would not be seen at low temp and/or idle. The Intermittant, High Speed and Hot conditions that are required for collapse may be difficult to confirm.

Is there a wire spiral in the lower hose? If not, I'd put my money on hose #45 collapse. The bend is typically restricted right from the factory even before it is installed.

Might be worth a revisit.

Rgds,
Vincenzo

 

FWIW, I think you should see this: I have just recently taken my Daytona engine out in order to commence a complete rebuild and restoration of the car and found the water ways in the block and heads completely blocked with a white aluminium compound powder. Admittedly this engine had stood for many years and was not running due to stuck pistons (not seized) but it just shows what can build up over time..... The engine was in remarkably good condition once I got the pistons out but the amount of powder in the water ways, which then spilled into the bores as I took the heads off was a big surprise. I will shortly start a new thread on the whole restoration of this incredible car and it's interesting history...
Chris
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For what is worth..If your Datona has an external/ in-line thermostat such as the one
Steve refered to, like the one in my 1980 400i Ser.I, it may be functioning intermttently such as mine did about 10 years ago. While malfunctioning in the hot Florida summer heat a couple of times, my water temp. gauge maxxed out, to point that I feared blowing a head gasket..I removed the thermostat and sought a replacement, but could not locate one at the time anywhere. So rather than go competely without a thermostat, I created a racing gate by installing a straight pipe with a small opening in place of the thermostat. I had/have such a fear of failing thermostats, that the racing gate is still in place, and the car has never overheated again...never. That being said, I have located a marvelous domestic source for the thermostats for <> $100 USD..Ferrari wants three times that. If you need one , p.m. me as I don't broadcast my "finds" for obvious reasons. I hope that this is of some value. Thank you very much. Jacques.

 

What obvious reason?

If you have parts to sell, FerrariAds is available free of charge.

 

I am kinda curious also.

 

I'll spell out the obvious reason..I have have seen suppliers snatch up certain parts and gouge. Is that obvios enough for ya? I just love the bile of some of you posters. There is really no place for it here.. so please stow it.Jacques

 

What suppliers?

What parts?

How do you mean "gouging"?

We really want to know, why keep it a secret?

 

Chris please share in a thread the progress of the work on your Ferrari Daytona! Is it an S1 or S2 of which year? How did you locate the Daytona originally?
CH