348 Triple Seals Question | FerrariChat

348 Triple Seals Question

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by jim94-348, Jan 10, 2012.

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  1. jim94-348

    jim94-348 Formula Junior
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    Aug 19, 2010
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    I recently did the clutch, new triple seals, and O-ring and I am still seeing some weeping out of the inspection cover. It is definitely brake fluid. When I removed the clutch all of the oil appeared to be from the splined shaft and it was pooled in the bell housing where the bearing is.

    I'm going to pull it apart again and I have new seals. I read on one thread or on www.my348.com where someone recommended putting them in boiling water to allow them to stretch. Is this recommended? I was also going to try the cardboard over the shaft to protect them. Any other suggestions?
     
  2. 2NA

    2NA F1 World Champ
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    If it's brake fluid, it's not the triple-seals. The slave cylinder seals are the problem.
     
  3. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #3 ernie, Jan 10, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2012
    ^What Tim said^

    It's either the seals in the throwout bearing are shot, and or, the o-rings on the back of the slave cylinder have given out. It either case replace them all as it is pushing 20+ years old, and are probably getting pretty hard.
     
  4. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #4 ernie, Jan 10, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2012
    One more thing.

    Be VERY careful when reinstalling the throwout bearing with the new seals. If you fold the lip the seal will tears and then it will GUSH break fluid all over the place. Have a look in this thread to see what I'm talking about in Chupacabra's thread http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=347965
     
  5. jim94-348

    jim94-348 Formula Junior
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    When you save slave cylinder, are you referring to the throw out bearing? I checked his when I had it off and they are the light blue. That is supposed to be the newest version so I don't think they are that old. What other seal are you referring to? If you can tell me which part numbers I need from Ricambi on the link below I'll order them. Thanks!

    http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?M=FE&P=&V=diag&I=223

    I forgot to mention that the only place I see oil is in the cover labeled 58 in the diagram. None on the clutch or anything so I thought it was the triple seals.
     
  6. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #6 ernie, Jan 10, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2012
    No.

    The slave cylinders is part number #19 on that diagram, Ferrari calls it a "bush support flange". There are little o-rings on the back side of that, and one big one that should get changed in addition to the others, in my opinion. They are part number #23 (2 little ones), and #16 (1 bigger o-ring).

    The other seal is the pink/orange/brown-ish colored one on the back if the throwout bearing, you can see it on post #39 in the link I posted in my last reply. That is the one Tim was talking about, and the main one I'm guessing is giving you the leak. This one http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=196648

    As for the tipple seals, no you don't need to put them in hot water. Ben (notbostrom) gave me a good tip on how to do them. Here is how I did mine per Ben's nice little trick. http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=296274&page=8
     
  7. jim94-348

    jim94-348 Formula Junior
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    I just ordered all that you recommended. Thanks! I only live a couple hours from Ricambi so maybe I can get the parts and get them changed out this week. Now if I can just figure out why I have the high clutch release that I posted in the 348 section I will have it all sorted.
     
  8. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    Totally guessing here, but maybe it has something to do with the break fluid leak????? Maybe it takes longer for the throwout bearing to move because of the leaking seal, not enough pressure to move it normally, and thus the longer peddle travel??? Totally guessing.
     
  9. jim94-348

    jim94-348 Formula Junior
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    I'll let you know once I get it back together. The leak is really minor. Just a couple drips here and there so that may not be it. I park the car on a lift and the girlfriend doesn't like drips on her car so I want to fix it. No drips so far since I have plastic drip shields but I also don't want oil on the clutch. That would be great if the seals fix it. I would think with the thicker clutch I would see a low pedal not a high one???
     
  10. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    YES. But my issue was the sealing ring behind the slave cylinder, that orange (? I'm slightly colorblind) gasket with the spring. I was flinging gear oil all over the place. If you replace it, make sure you seat it gingerly but absolutely completely with something that is VERY similar in diameter. Seems those things are just easily messed up.
     
  11. jim94-348

    jim94-348 Formula Junior
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    Now I'm a little confused. My car was bone dry around the throw out side of the bell housing when I did the work a couple weeks ago. The oil that I saw was only in inspection cover area for the rear bearing at the very back of the car on the pumpkin. It is definitely brake fluid too with no real smell. Am I ordering the right parts?
     
  12. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
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    I assume he is referring to 131651.


    On the brake fluid, my guess is the 2 x 121813 small seals o-rings on the back of the flange (you ordered them today).
     
  13. jim94-348

    jim94-348 Formula Junior
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    I just want to make sure I got the right things. Chupa's issue that Ernie referred to was an entirely different issue that what I am having. Just want to make sure I am getting the right stuff.
     
  14. ernie

    ernie Two Time F1 World Champ
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    D'Oh!!!

    I caused some confusion. Let me clear things up a bit.

    Okay the little o-rings you ordered from Daniel-san are on the back of the "flange"/slave cylinder. The seal is also on the back of the slave cylinder, that's the one Chupacabra had the problem with. It is my opinion that since you are already going to have the slave cylinder off, you may as well change the seal on the back. It is after all about 20 years old. But that is just my opinion. I also mistakenly though that is what Tim was talking about. My bad, sorry about the confusion.

    The seals Tim is talking about are actually inside in throwout bearing, also know as the trust bearing. The seals are the blues one, you can see a picture of them here. http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=138677890&postcount=34 Daniel-san also has those. AceMaster did a very nice write up on it http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=296614 He did though change out all the seals.

    My feeling is that you should just change out all the seals while you are in there, and be done with it. But then again, if it ain't broke don't fix it. It's up to you what you are comfortable with.


    Hope that helps clear things up, and sorry about the confusion.
     
  15. Chupacabra

    Chupacabra F1 Rookie
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    +1! Just get it over with so you don't have to worry about it for a long time. BTW, when you bleed your clutch, use the "tube in an elevated bucket" method. You'll save yourself a lot of time!
     
  16. jim94-348

    jim94-348 Formula Junior
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    #16 jim94-348, Jan 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I took the time and pulled out the clutch again. Thought I'd post some pictures for the people that haven't seen it before. I also have pictures of the new clutch from H&R Clutch.

    Here is the flywheel in the housing. It is perfectly smooth but doesn't look like it in the picture.
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  17. jim94-348

    jim94-348 Formula Junior
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    #17 jim94-348, Jan 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here is the new clutch with a little bit of wear on it. I probably have 300 miles on it in these pictures. This is the Kevlar ring gear side.
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  18. jim94-348

    jim94-348 Formula Junior
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    #18 jim94-348, Jan 15, 2012
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  19. jim94-348

    jim94-348 Formula Junior
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    #19 jim94-348, Jan 15, 2012
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  20. jim94-348

    jim94-348 Formula Junior
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    #20 jim94-348, Jan 15, 2012
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  21. jim94-348

    jim94-348 Formula Junior
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    #21 jim94-348, Jan 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I decided not to open remove the throw out bearing since I checked it the first time I worked on the clutch a few weeks back and all the seals looked brand new and were the new blue color. I've had the car a year and someone upgraded everything before I go it.

    I also didn't remove the flange and change the seals because this looks brand new. I hope you can see it in the picture.
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  22. jim94-348

    jim94-348 Formula Junior
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    #22 jim94-348, Jan 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    When the triple seals went in they were a little loose so I thought I would try something new. First I used some electrical tape to hold the seals tightly in place. You can see it here in the picture. I did several wraps to try to compress it and protect it.
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  23. jim94-348

    jim94-348 Formula Junior
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    #23 jim94-348, Jan 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Next I used a hose clap (actually one from one of the airbox lines) and tightened it over the electrical tape to compress the seals fully in their grooves. I then left it on for a few minutes. When I removed the hose clamp the seals slid right in like the should.
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  24. jim94-348

    jim94-348 Formula Junior
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    Now comes the problem. It is all back together and seems to be leaking as badly as it was before I opened it up. It is and was the triple seals leaking. When I opened it up the clutch shaft was covered in gear oil. (I was mistaken that it was clutch fluid) I replaced the seals again and was very careful to not over stretch them and used the plastic over the shaft method that Ernie recommended. This is the second try with new seals and I can promise that the seals looked perfect before I put is all back together. If the seals look good and are pretty tight on the shaft any ideas what the problem can be?Is there anything else other than a worn shaft that cause this?
     

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