Hopefully I can take you up on the offer in the near future as I'm sure we could get into some sort of car trouble via Roscoe P.Coltrain style . Thanks.
I received some parts yesterday so I am back in the garage. I am searching for a small water to air intercooler (2 of them) and found this on ebay, it from a turbo personal watercraft. I asked the guy the size of this water to air intercooler so I could see if it would fit my area I have work in. His reply was "ABOUT THE SIZE OF #11 SHOE) http://www.ebay.com/itm/130448277083?item=130448277083&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME:X:RTQ:MOTORS:1123
Jack imo it is way to small and will be a HUGE restriction and the stepdown/stepup would be a huge hassle aswell. A/W would be nice but the added expense and the plumbing will be more headache than they are worth. You would have to run two of everything.
Being there will have to be two of them and they are sized for a 1.5 liter motor it should work quite well but I haven't made up my mind just looking at options. I guess I will have to get a size 11 shoe and measure it!
That I can support but going the opposite way of the goal is when I feel some advice is needed. When it comes to intercoolers and turbo's I pay attention to the CFM and what hp it can efficiently support, I like to keep it simple because well I'm simple . The engine bay in the 308/328 is not imho able to accommodate a dual water/air intercooler system imho and I have never seen a single w/a intercooler with dual inlets and outlets for a TT setup.
Yes that would be the next solution, I have a couple water to air intercoolers from a ford lightning which one of them would be big enough. It would be sweet if I could fabricate something that would fit under the deck lid. I'm afraid the old air to air intercooler from the past set up to be in the way now of the new location of the second turbo which will be mounted just in front of #4 cylinder.
You got some cool stuff going on over here Jack thanks for sharing! I can't wait to be a big boy and play with boost like you lucky SOB! I have a little project which you can give maybe give me some excellent real world feedback/expectations. Not meaning to high jack just looks like you have experience with many different types of mod's. I have a nitrous setup (not installed yet) that blows nitrous down each runner on my car with EFI and the factory plenum. I run this car down at the local P club and am already pretty competitive without nitrous or any kind of boost. Can you get nitrous to transition on smoothly? I only need a couple of seconds to be a contender for TTOD. This is of course depending on the track. I had a fogger that just blew in behind the throttle body but I was worried I would blow the motor with uneven distribution so never really used it that much. The other consideration with all this is the amount of nitrous that is being delivered. I tried to make the final orifice as close to the point of injection as possible to keep the nitrous liquid, but with only .025" orifices on each runner that is 150-200 hp of nitrous. I could put a second orifice up stream to cut the flow down but I'm not sure this is a good idea because it can make the nitrous turn to gas too early ... ideally you want the nitrous going into the runners as a liquid ... even into the cylinder as a liquid if possible. One last thought about turbos and intercoolers ... something that someone planted in my head a year or so ago ... there's some guy around my neck of the woods with a Subaru that is intercooled with an a/c heat exchanger ... closed loop using a/c refrigerant. I have not seen it but it sounded like a really slick setup ... any thoughts? cheers
Wow, you got some big HP gain there, remember the next weakest link theory, that kind of HP gain will eat a stock clutch up in a hurry even under way. You are correct about the second orifice, that just like an AC expansion valve will turn to gas, you have it plumbed the best way by getting closest to the intake valve as possible and make sure your EFI and injectors are sized for the additional HP gain. I am not sure how pulse width modulation would work with a solenoid valve and the effect but rather than on and constant flow pulse width modulation would pulse the valve in various on and off cycles thus changing the flow of the nitrous. Pulse width modulators are used in and dc motor speed control and for the making of Hydrogen from salt water, you get get one on ebay for 30 bucks. Yes I have heard of using the ac compressor and evaporator plus another expansion valve to cool the intake charge but at high rpm I have the computer turn off the ac compressor as not to over speed the compressor and create to much pressure on the high side of the AC system. Another way I have heard is to use the AC compressor to cool off a tank filled with water and then use a pump and water to air intercooler to cool the charge. All of this is a lot of plumbing. I grew up in Norcal, we still have a home in Mendocino but from the looks of the weather its better here than there today, we have 70 and I have the garage doors open.
I received the silicon adapters for the bypass thermostat and the new silicon hose for the cooling system yesterday, didn't get a chance to put anything together in the car but did finish up the oil and water lines to the turbos. I have the return oil from the turbos plumbed in above the oil level in the pan and need to make up the drain hoses to the block. The last part is to fabricate the headers going into the headers then take it all off the engine and stab the engine in the car then reassemble everything to make sure it fits. Here are a few pictures. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Wow, I just found this thread...don't know how I missed it before. I've just read the first couple pages. I'll read up some more when I have more time. Great work Jack!
I have been pretty busy with work and other projects but had some time last week to do a little plumbing (in the car) for the electric water pump and bypass thermostat. I cut and welded the aluminum pipes for fitment of the pump and bypass and are free floating. As you can see the little pump down low is for the heater, I am using the old heater line for the suction side of the fill tank. I also ran two new lines from the back of the car for the water to air intercooler radiator. It was a tight fit so I used PEX which slid easily through the area where the heater and vacuum line is located. Sure had a lot of rocks and dirt up front, will need to pressure wash when I'm done. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
I'm guessing the 208 engine must have a pretty lo compression ratio like the GTO. Sean is it a wet or dry system? There were some real kick ass, dual stage dry nitrous kits for 5.0l Mustangs in the early 90's. With total control of fuel and timing with your EFI, a nitro motor that builds power gradually is definitely possible. My buddy had a 5.0 with one. IIRC, first stage at the tbody, activated by a button on the gas pedal, second stage independent nozzles @ the runners activated by a button on the shifter. It had some kind of a brain(about the size of a radar detecor) mounted in the interior as well. Very smooth transition. Google search 'dual stage dry nitro' I'm sure what available today is even better and more user friendly. I also always wondered about refrigerant and if the cooling effect on the charge would outweigh the power loss @ the compressor. I used to race my TurboBuick with the A/C on frequently! .......but that motor NEVER revved past 5200rpm.
The original compression was 7 to 1 but I had some special pistons made at JE that Norwood has been using and upped the compression to 8.5 to 1. With modern ECM controls it should keep detonation down. I'm getting ready to mount the radiator for the water to air intercooler, it should do the job. I also have a water to air core that came out of a lightning truck so I split it down the center and going to use two separate cores, one for each turbo that will feed the plenum. Plumbing is a pain but it has to be done right. I have had this same type system on my GT40 for 4 years now and it works very well, the GT40 has a dart 427 block and its never gotten hot even doing 118 miles of open road racing above 120 mph. Looks funky works great. Thanks Jack
were the pistons before or after the twin turbo setup? With the single turbo, stock compression, and 3.2l displacement, I have no issues with lag whatsoever. Now don't get me wrong, the boost won't come on as hard or as lo as my turbo regal, but it is instant. My tuner was telling me it's in the timing and that he can make the adjustment. I declined, I like it where it is. Smooth, linear and very V12-like! dont worry if it looks funky, just keep those taillights clean. It's the only thing anyone will see! Btw, I think Bert308 is running twin intercoolers on his supercharged engine.
.....and another thing, Just looking at your engine pics, Have you given any thought to mounting the turbo for the front bank behind the motor instead of in front of it? I think there is plenty of room for intercooling on the drivers side above the clutch. That's kinda where the Koenig system mounts. On top of that, your not using the stock plenum/tbody, or ignition, anyway. So there really is no plumbing restrictions PAD's use of his trunk as a cool air box is pretty awesome. There are some great GTB&S's here on this forum. ....and I think Pizzaman's signature says it best: "Customizations to bespoke automobiles to the owner's taste is a longstanding Ferrari tradition among genuine enthusiasts. Perhaps not collectors, but certainly the motorsports enthusiasts whom the cars were to be meant for." -Russ Turner
I think I got you all confused a little, the 208 engine is not going back into the car, its on the shelf till I figure out what I'm going to do with it. After the thermal melt down of the exhaust valves in the 208 I decide to buy some early 308 heads and bolt on the 208 block as the intake and exhaust are much larger in size than the 208 heads BUT the valve are so big they would not clear the sleeves of the 208 block so I was going to have to bore the 208 sleeves to 2.8 liter to clear the valve and have some pistons made for it. I have a 75 308GT4 that I put a GM blower on 10 years ago and the motor is strong (this is the one with JE pistons) but the car was weak, so rather than spend more money on the 208 block I just pulled the 308 motor and transaxle to install in the 208, I took the blower and water to air intercooler off and installed TWM throttle bodies. The orginal 208 engine was twin turboed. I haven't fabricated the turbo exhaust yet, I am going to put the motor in the car and make sure of my clearances before I do anything. Yes there is lots of room on the clutch side of the motor and I will keep that option open. I do want to make sure that the exhaust is pretty close to being equal in length on each turbo. The heat is what makes them work, different length exhaust going to each turbo is a problem.
Wiring harness is completed, motor installed, plumbed the water to oil cooler in and the Oberg oil filter is mounted. After looking at my 30 year old radiator I decided to buy a new aluminum radiator and water jet a shroud for the new fans. Now all the plumbing is done for the oil and water to the engine so starts the hard part....turbo headers and tyeing it all together. Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Wow, looking good, Jack! So you have me stumped. What's the gold colored square object in the 2nd pic (that sits approx. where the coolant expansion tank sits on a QV)? What kind of oil to water heat exchanger did you use? It looks like it's connected with the silicon hoses (and not welded into the aluminum pipes like Mark did when he was running his 2nd gen supercharger).
Thats the Oberg oil filter, many of racers use these type filters, it has a washable 60 micron filter in it which gives you the ability to see whats going on in the motor. The water to oil cooler is from a ford cobra which is the same as the aeroquip water to oil cooler. The beauity of it is it preheats as well as cools. I switched over to water to oil coolers when I use to tract this car and on long straights under high boost caused the oil to heat up to 300F, the old air to oil cooler couldn't keep up. I also put this type oil cooler on a experimental plane I built, it was turbo charged also but at high altitudes the oil would not stay warm and at low altitude on take off (high load) it got to hot. This solved both problems. Where is Marks thread on that engine? I found the thread but no pictures, they are not there anymore. I would like to meet Mark someday, seems we have many of the same ideas. Image Unavailable, Please Login
