Vintage section Fake/Replica/Recreation/Rebody discussion

again, 2819GT is not a GTO. Never was. Never claimed to be.

 

Than why are you? It´s perfectly possible to argue that an ugly car is, next to being a form of transportation, a work of art. Take s/n 7979GT, the Drogo 330, for instance. Ugly? Yes. A work of art? Yes.

Why are you so opposed to the idea that a car, or any object of usage, could be, next to it´s practical use, considered art?

 

GTE, you are correct and those who disagree with you are wrong. That's it, I have made a decision.

 

This thread resembles closely the discussion about porn on TV.

There are those who oppose it, there are those who simply ignore it, and there are those who watch it.

You have the choice.

 

There are also those who shout the first, try the second, and do the third....


Onno

 

Too true Onno This sabbatical of yours is doing you good!

 

excellent post. On your number 2. category: is it possible to make the replica thread a sticky one? I think nobody will argue about the content of this category beause it's clear what they are. There will be no false claims because the chassisnumber clearly marks it as a replica.

All other continuations, recreations, homages etc to certain Ferraris can stay in the general Vintage section as you rightly point out, because their provenance is often challenged and it wouldn't be wise for F-Chat to be the judge in that.

Best, Peter

 

So if some cars are "art", and a GTO is considered among one of the best and most desireable examples of art, then perhaps it follows that a GTE carefully, meticulously, and accurately transformed into a GTO Recreation (to use Rob's definition) would therefore also be a piece of art to be admired in its own right?

 

I think I´ll have to agree with this one.

Redline shouldn´t be made the bad guy in all of this. While I very much condemn a GTO on (the remains of) a GTE-chassis and particular this one since apparently it has willingly be misrepresented in the past, Redline is offering it for what it is. You can not expect them to pass moral judgement on this car and let the business go by. Sure, I can, but I have no (monetary) stake in this. Besides, it isn´t their fault that poor GTE has been scarred for life. They at least try and arrange a good home for it.

 

I can stack tomato cans and brillo pads with the best of 'em, but that doesn't make me Warhol.

Few among us have actually trekked to The Louvre and seen the original Mona Lisa. Oh, sure, I saw "it" nearly every day throughout formative years in my Grandmother's home, but even as a child, knew it was a reproduction. There's a world of difference between an original piece of art and a lithograph, or even scholarly lookalike, which passes for the real thing. I'm just glad the Van Gogh "Sunflowers" poster craze is over.

Like original art, First Edition books are more valuable than reprints.

However I may blather and opine, I have not done my homework. On the other hand, Sensei El Wayne has the discerning eye on separating fact from fiction, and artfully so. So, Salud! to Wayne for his due diligence and leadership through thick and thin.

 

I must say that I am all for keeping the replicas in this group, but a replica-sticky would be too much even for me. It would send completely wrong message about why this group exists. Best wishes, Kare

 

Hi Peter,

El Wayne's excellent post isn't suggesting categories. He's stating how it is and how it will continue, unchanged. There will be no replica thread to sticky. El Waynes 'point 2' cars will remain within the one and only Vintage section.

Alex

 

Hi Alex,

There already exists a dedicated replica thread in the Vintage section:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=220313

I've suggested to make it sticky and make the title and first post very clear about how replicas are looked upon. This way the Vintage section has its own "garbage bin" and thus the rest of the section will be kept clean, which should please the purists here. They don't need to click on the sticky replica thread if they don't want to.

Best, Peter

 

Hi Peter,

Excuse me, I didn't realise you meant sticky the current replica thread. It's not a bad idea, as you say it will collect most of the chaff, but making it a sticky does promote replica's, in the sense that they will be top of the list other than the copyright note.

Alex

 

So then does it follow that many a restored, and any rebodied-to-original vintage Ferrari is not art? Anyone who has frequented a restoration shop where car bodies are fashioned for Pebble Beach has witnessed that some times as little as 25% of the original body and chassis is salvaged during restoration, depending on condition.

Testa Rossa on its 3rd body? 410 Superamerica refashioned from a chassis found at the bottom of a lake? Just because the body resembles the chassis stamp does not mean that (with all due respect to the two wonderful cars before-mentioned) we aren't actually looking at a meticulously and faithfully produced recreation of the original.

Sadly, to me it just seems like the division between original and recreation- what is welcomed and what is scorned- has more to do with politics than reason.

 

Thank you Ferraripete and GTE, this has been our position and the way we see it all along. We did not and will not create a replica. A customer asked if we would sell the GTO reproduction in question and the only reason we did agree to it was the Ferrari DNA it possessed (not Datsun based), the quality, and the history of the vehicle. We have and will continue to represent this vehicle for what it is and what we know it to be. While Julio thinks we should not be here due to this matter, he is irrelevant to us and those that have and continue to support us is why we are here and will remain here.

 

I bought some art last weekend, some giant oil paintings.....


Of strippers..........


South American strippers..........



Maybe one of them is Oriental, hard to say.....



The one 'early in the dance" was okay in the living room.
The second one went in Bedroom #1.


I took down some Jay Koka prints to make room.
Art in transition I suppose.


Eventually the Ferrari 'stuff' comes to take up too much of your life, a balance is often a good thing...

 

Indeed......good press.....bad press.........it's all the same.......

He handles some wonderful cars and projects it would be a shame to corral them only into his dealer thread at the bottom.

 

While I am not in favor of the practice(as applied to replicas), I would also add that it is entirely possible to recreate a vintage Ferrari body. It will look, feel and act like the original. The biggest problem would be reproducing all the flaws and inaccuracies of the original, as the factory was concerned with winning races-not producing the ultimate example of lawn poodle perfection.
The Mona Lisa or one of Van Gogh's masterworks, I'd consider essentially un-reproducable as many of the raw materials and period knowledge have been lost.

 

I also have no issue with you selling a quality reproduction. It seems that for someone wanting such a car, it would make sense to have a reputable dealer standing behind it. Actually, I wasn't even aware of your facility until this thread pushed it to the forefront. Good stuff, indeed.

 

As I understand it there are copies of all the master paintings, many are purchased by the owners of the originals, and of course there are fakes that are believed to be real, but thats a whole other discussion.

 

Put up a separate Fake/Replica/etc. forum and be done with it. It would separate the "sheep" from the "goats" and end this silly bickering.

Personally, I don't take offense at these; in fact, they're interesting and fun to read about and see. I do have a personal stake...hope my beloved old #5409 gets restored, but wouldn't mind seeing it well-rebodied either.

Legal aspects? The burden of proof of authenticity falls to the owner of the car in question.