The Ultimate 355 Brake system, or what I built over summer! | Page 2 | FerrariChat

The Ultimate 355 Brake system, or what I built over summer!

Discussion in '348/355' started by Bve07, Feb 15, 2012.

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  1. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

    Sep 22, 2008
    6,918
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    Pete
    The diffuser doesn't create a vacuum per say in that specific area, it accelerates the air by channeling it and using the bernoulli effect to create downforce (think upside down airplane wing - faster air traveling under slower air makes downforce, the opposite makes lift - the diffuser does this by accelearating the air under the car which in turn acts as a vacuum sucking the car down). So placing NACA ducts where the air is being channeled makes perfect sense for cooling. It may increase drag ever so slightly? But, that's usually the price you pay for using air for cooling.
     
  2. Bve07

    Bve07 Rookie

    May 7, 2009
    44
    Plenty Australia
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    Bob Van Essen
    Terry, interesting point, but you can't compare apples to oranges!
    From my understanding of CCM brakes, the coefficient of friction is far more dependant on the operating temperature, than steel. As such if you were to put CCM brakes on the 355, the rears would also need to be reduced, to compensate for the much higher rear brake temperature.
    With todays computer modelling, and vast database of experience, I believe Ferrari and Brembo would have brake design down to a fine art. Sure, the last 2 or 3 percent may be gained by practical trial on test track, as it always will be.

    I'm not sure if it's old technology, or Ferrari designed the system to be this way, but the 355 ABS system is a pretty loose system, I'ts quite easy to feel a wheel lockup before the ABS cuts in. I've also run many times with the ABS switched off.
    I'ts not like turning off the OMG....Traction control....!
     
  3. Bve07

    Bve07 Rookie

    May 7, 2009
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    Bob Van Essen
    Thanks, I understand the principal, but i'm still reluctant to hit my undertray with the holesaw!
     
  4. bobzdar

    bobzdar F1 Veteran

    Sep 22, 2008
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    Pete

    I hear you on that, the trays are simple enough that I'm contemplating making a mold and then making some copies to add ducts to as the challenge pieces are ridiculous and even the stock ones are pretty expensive ($300 a side?).
     
  5. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    39,315
    Clarksville, Tennessee
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    Terry H Phillips
    Bob- I think they put the smaller CCMs on the back because they are cheaper, but who knows? I know why they put 398 mm CCM fronts and 360 mm rears on the 575M HGTC with that big V12 up front, but the logic for the V8s is not quite so straight forward.

    Informative on the F355 ABS. Thanks. My car has 396 MM CER Mov'Its up front and I doubt you could feel one end or the other lock with the Bosch 5.3 system. Interesting differences.
     
  6. zakeen

    zakeen Formula Junior

    Aug 29, 2004
    989
    Czech Republic
    I dont have a 355, but a 348. It locks ups also with the ABS. Ever so slightly if you hard brake you can here and feel the small locks ups when the ABS is working.
     
  7. Bve07

    Bve07 Rookie

    May 7, 2009
    44
    Plenty Australia
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    Bob Van Essen
    #32 Bve07, Feb 18, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    You know when the ABS has kicked in, because you feel the control pulses back through the pedal. Smooth pedal and wheel lock, non ABS, pulsing in pedal and wheel lock, ABS. Try switching of and you can feel the difference.

    Back to the system description!
    The disc rotor hats and brackets are manufactured from T6061 T6 Aluminium. I obtained the Alloy spec from two independent rotor hat manufacturers. Some people refer to this alloy as "Aircraft spec", truth is, it's just a good Engineering grade Alloy, Has the right balance of strength, machinability etc.
    The fronts hats are conventional in design, the rear incorporate the park brake drum.
    Initially I considered pressing in a steel rim to improve durability, however with differential expansion issues, I decided against this.
    The answer to "How to improve drum durability" proved simple.

    I am over 6' tall, as such I have the steering wheel in the fully raised position, to gain Knee, legroom.
    With the wheel in this position I cannot see the park brake light.
    I have driven with the park brake on, so many times, that after the first year of ownership, I gave up. and didn't bother adjusting it.
    Problem, driving with a well adjusted handbrake on, could potentially damage the rear hats.
    If we assume the park brake is to be used for parking, and hill starts etc. and not professional rally driving.
    Then the answer is simple.
    The hats are hard anodised, to provide a high wear surface, note: hard anodising is not the same as color anodising, and I wired a slow pulse Piezo horn in parallel with the Park brake light. The Piezo horn I chose is a 82 dba. unit, I adjusted the volume with some foam and tape, it's clear to hear above engine noise, but not that loud that it's annoying.
    Now I have a working park brake, I never drive with it on, and the rear hat integrity is guaranteed.
    Don't you love killing two birds with one stone!

    To manufacture the brackets, I felt accuracy was paramount. As such I decided they would best be manufactured in one operation. ( each time you remove a part finished item, and remount for a second operation, errors occur. ) I used a Multi axis lathe to mill the brackets, using the tail stock for support. This method of manufacture dictated the design of the bracket.
    The mounting brackets are approx. 225mm long, as such I required sufficient beam strength, for machining stability. This is why they are a beam design. The brackets are around 100gms. heavier than they need to be, but I think this is a small price to pay for ultimate accuracy. And sometimes size does matter!
    It was necessary to rotate the rear calipers 10deg. to provide clearance with the lower suspension A Frame. As a result there is a left and right rear bracket, the front are the same.
    The original brake hoses can be use, although I decided to update to SS braided. The front brake tubes from caliper to hose bracket are replaced with 35mm longer tubes.
    I replaced the brake bolts with capscrews, They are readily available from any industrial bolt supply, Just be sure to roll the bolts on a bench to check for straightness, before you buy. The calipers locate via the bolts, and they are a snug fit to the bolts.

    Well, I think thats it for the Why and How part!
    Will follow soon with parts list etc.
    Now more pics.
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  8. Bve07

    Bve07 Rookie

    May 7, 2009
    44
    Plenty Australia
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    Bob Van Essen
    I've gone through my notes and thought it best to indicate my costs to build the system.
    My costs are based on a single purchase, I did of course shop around, so they are the best prices I could obtain at the time. Prices are for new gear in Aus.$, also inc. 10% GST.
    It would be better if a group purchase could be arranged? As I noted earlier, even if I could obtain a 20% group purchase price, it would most likely be lost in Australian postage costs.
    So I leave the major off the shelf components up to individuals to work out. I am of course happy to help anyone if they have problems buying components.
    4 off Calipers Brembo XA5.M4.01/04 $2,500-00 ( note calipers included Brembo Pads )
    4 off Disc Rotors AP racing CP4542-142CG12, CP4542-143CG12 ( note LH and RH )$2,360-00
    4 off Disc rotors DBA series 5000 DBA5210 $1,320-00 (option, cheaper rotors) 355mm
    4 off Disc mounting kits CP3845-101K12 $252-00
    misc. Bolts and tubes allow $100-00
    Custom Set off 4 Hats and 4 brackets and Piezo. $1,560-00
    I've based the custom parts on minimum 10off people interested.
    I know it's not a cheap system, It's the best system I could make at the cheapest price, I just wanted brakes that would work just as good on lap 20, as they did on lap 1.
    I was going to purchase the Brembo 330mm system, but I just didn't know if they would do the job, particularly when the challenge cars were running 355mm, with extra cooling.
    I would be spending a lot of money on a gamble.
    Anyway, I'm very happy with the end result, and hopefully others will benefit as well.
    There is one unexpected bonus to this system, and that is the price of the pads were only 10% more than the 355 pads, and they are 200% larger. And as I was going through pads at the rate of 3 track days per set. I'm hoping to make a saving!
    I'm planing to use my 355 calipers on a Big Brake system for my 308!
    This time I might start a thread first to see who's interested.
     
  9. White Knight

    White Knight Formula 3

    Aug 22, 2011
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    Todd S.
    Great explanation regarding your thought processes. Enjoyed reading about your journey.
     
  10. X11OUD

    X11OUD Formula Junior

    Mar 22, 2008
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    Neil
    Great write up Bob, the upgrade looks really good especially the beautifully machined components.
     
  11. gatorgreg

    gatorgreg Formula 3
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    nice work. thank you for sharing.
     
  12. cavlino

    cavlino Formula 3

    Mar 6, 2002
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    Ottawa, Canada
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    Carm Scaffidi
    +355
     
  13. MRF40@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Formula Junior

    Jan 1, 2006
    563
    Planet Urf.
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    like whut? Ralph??
  14. Extreme

    Extreme F1 Rookie

    May 26, 2010
    2,515
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    Erick
    Any updates?
    Are the brake hats and mounting brackets available now?

    I'm currently looking at brake upgrade options.
     
  15. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,741
    I have my F355 equipted with Ferrodo DS2500 pads, and fresh fluid. I can lap Texas World Speedway* within 2 seconds of the lap record** in 103dF Texas summertime heat. Yet I get 30+ track days on a set of rotors and have not had a "brake" incident since changing to Ferrodo pads. In one open track day session, I ran 72 minutes (one complete tank of gas) but it was only 99dF that day without any brake issues. There are times I come off the track with the rotors battleship grey and hot enough to roast weenies thorugh the spokes on the tires, but the brakes continue to work just fine.

    (*) or MSR Cresson or MSR Houston (Bonney) but not with 2 seconds of lap record.
    (**) Car is stock, tires are(were) Bridgestone S03s, ATE SuperBlue/Gold fluids. Within 2 seconds of the lap record for 3200 pound cars with 400 HP on STREET tires.

    So when you talk about the brakes going soft after 3-4 laps, something else has to be going on. Perhaps R-compound tires (or slicks). Perhaps you are pushing the brakes harder than I do. Perhaps you are driving in hotter temperatures than I am.
     
  16. gatorgreg

    gatorgreg Formula 3
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    #41 gatorgreg, Nov 12, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2012
    It's a really nice brake system. I did not want to say it, but if you are on the track with a 355 and after 4 laps your brakes are fading. Your braking technic needs to be improved the not the brakes.
    The brakes on the 355 are wonderful, if you learn to get on and then off the brakes quickly, the car will stop on a dime. Tires (temps) are a HUGE part of the equation. Proper tires with the correct camber angle factor into the formula. You always want to keep your rotating mass down. Lighter rotors and calibers are always better.

    I have found the slotted rotors last longer than drilled.
    Yes, the rotors do crack under EXTREME conditions and after many hours of hard braking. Keeping the stock rotors and some driving lessons from a pro is still cheaper than the cost of this braking system.
    I like the system. It's just not needed.
     
  17. jeffdavison

    jeffdavison F1 Rookie

    Jul 29, 2002
    2,544
    Suwanee Georgia
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    Jeffrey Davison
    Any updates over the last 7 years?
    JD
     

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