308 rear spoiler (wing) | Page 8 | FerrariChat
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308 rear spoiler (wing)

Discussion in '308/328' started by Crowndog, Feb 3, 2012.

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  1. hyenahf

    hyenahf F1 Rookie

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    #176 hyenahf, Feb 13, 2012

    +2
     
  2. ace_pilot

    ace_pilot Formula Junior

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    #177 ace_pilot, Feb 13, 2012
    I have a euro 328 rear spoiler from Germany that is supposely factory painted. I would like to see the prices and if there's a "painted" option.

    Ace
     
  3. Crowndog

    Crowndog F1 Veteran

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    #178 Crowndog, Feb 13, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2012
    I took the suggestion and have written to Pininfarina it. to the Aerodynamic & Aeroacoustic Research plant concerning our questions about the spoiler and any wind-tunnel studies done on the 3X8 series. I will of course post any reply.

    They have used it since 1972: (interestingly they show every Ferrari model except the 308)

    http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pininfarina.it%2F

    Also:

    http://www.pininfarina.com/index/storiaModelli/collaborazioni/collFerrari.html
     
  4. afterburner

    afterburner F1 Rookie
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    #179 afterburner, Feb 13, 2012
    Nice; I am also very interested in PF's reply.
    The Mondial doesn't appear either, but its quoted Cd of 0.39 seems honest.
     
  5. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    #180 nerofer, Feb 14, 2012
    Ace,

    For the time being, this is the list of options available in 1988, but with the french prices; I'll update it with the german prices in a few hours, as soon as put my hand on my GTS papers (my GTS is ex-german market, my GTB french) which includes the sales brochures.
    The list of option is the same for France and Germany.
    As for the roof spoiler painted body color, even though it does not appear in the official list of options, I confirm that it was available; my GTS has it.

    Liste des options pour la Ferrari 328, source "Sport-Auto", Mai 1988 *

    Ferrari 328 GTB / GTS *
    Base price: GTB: 430.000 Francs / GTS: 440.000 frcs *
    Anti Wheel lock (Teves): * * * * * * * * * * * 16.000 frcs *
    Air conditionnned: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 13.600 frcs *
    Leather dash board: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 7.400 frcs *
    Extended leather to roof lining and rear window surround: 4.800 frcs *
    Metalised paint: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 6.400 frcs *
    Roof spoiler: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 2.720 frcs *
    Schedoni leather luggage set, four pieces: * * * 12.400 frcs *

    Best,
     
  6. nerofer

    nerofer F1 World Champ

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    #181 nerofer, Feb 15, 2012
    Ace,

    As promised, and FWIW: german list of options ("Wahlweise Mehrausstattung"), March 1988 (VAT is included in the prices, which are in Deutsche Mark)

    Ferrari 328 GTB / GTS, base price: GTB: 116.300 DM / GTS 120.000 DM

    Metallic-Lackierung (metalised paint): 1.580,-
    Klimaanlage (air conditionning): 3.930, -
    Heckspoiler (roof spoiler): 750,-
    Armaturenbrett in Leder (leather dashboard): 2.070,-
    Fahrzeughimmel und hinter Ablage in Leder: (roof lining and rear window surround in leather): 1.320,-
    ABS (Teves): 4.230,-

    Luggage set: 3.100,-

    Best,
     
  7. Crowndog

    Crowndog F1 Veteran

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    #182 Crowndog, Feb 15, 2012
  8. vaccarella

    vaccarella Formula 3

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    #183 vaccarella, Feb 15, 2012
    yes I read that yesterday. No big deal. Ferrari, Maserati, Lancia ... all of them have gone through ownership changes. There's no way Pininfarina will suffer the fate of Ghia and become just a badge. A year or two ago Italdesign fell to Lamborghini very quietly. I expect Ferrari/Fiat will pick up Pininfarina in some form.
     
  9. afterburner

    afterburner F1 Rookie
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    #184 afterburner, Feb 15, 2012
    Volkswagen actually
     
  10. vaccarella

    vaccarella Formula 3

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    #185 vaccarella, Feb 16, 2012
    Well of course, but it was bought through Lambo.
     
  11. ace_pilot

    ace_pilot Formula Junior

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    #186 ace_pilot, Feb 17, 2012
    Thanks!
    Ace
     
  12. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
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    #187 thecarreaper, Feb 17, 2012
    Reading a Lotus book, there is a later esprit turbo ( 300 ?) that has a spoiler in the same location , but is a different shape. Lotus is fanatical about weight and functionality, so the location at least is a good one.
     
  13. treventotto

    treventotto Formula Junior

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    #188 treventotto, Feb 27, 2012
    Did someone mention:
    The airflow at the point of attack is probably not horizontal. The air is lifted up by front and windscreen. Then it falls towards the spoiler.
    The angle of attack therefore may actually cause a downforce (at least no lift).
    All examples of other cars with a similar spoiler have them at the same distance from the windscreen with a similar sudden drop of the bodywork behind the spoiler.
     
  14. Matto

    Matto Formula 3

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    #189 Matto, Feb 27, 2012
    I'm 6'3" with a pretty good reach. Out on the highway this weekend, I remembered you guys and this thread. At various speeds up to 60mph, I reached over with my hand into that space between the airfoil and the back edge of the roof to get a feel for how the air is moving back there (don't try this at home). I also checked the back edge of the airfoil. I could feel that warm engine air really moving.

    No, not terribly scientific (well, maybe in a loose way), but interesting.

    Personally, I could really tell that it was creating what is probably much-needed turbulence back there (as BigTex has hinted), to get the air moving over those "exit" louvers and the rear glass. It was creating this roiling airspace, resulting in a kind of vacuum, that seemed to be carrying off the rear. There was definitely no dead-air pocket, which is great. Whether or not that happens without a rear airfoil I do not know. From my limited understanding of it, pretty darned ingenius. Clearly, taking a level look at it from the front of the car, the downward angle is considerable. I tend to lean toward an assumption that the engineers in Maranello had reasons for such add-ons....beyond cosmetics. Hell, maybe it was just a case of "hey, let's try this!". I'd still be fascinated to see an airfoil-equipped QV in a wind tunnel, compared to one without.
     
  15. Jonny Law

    Jonny Law F1 Rookie
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    #190 Jonny Law, Feb 27, 2012
    And we have a winner. Although there are some flaws, this looks to be the best 3D images I have found.
    http://humster3d.com/2012/02/21/ferrari-308-gtb-gts-1975/

    Next question, anyone have experience with the following software?
    Autodesk FBX (.fbx)
    3DS MAX 2008 scanline(.max)
    3DS MAX 2008 vray (.max)
    Maya 8.5 (.mb)
    Wavefront OBJ (.obj)
    3D Studio (.3ds)
    Lightwave 6.0 (.lwo)
    Cinema 4D 11 (.c4d)
    Autodesk Drawing (.dxf, .dwg)
    Rhinoceros 3D (.3dm)
    Google Sketchup (.skp)
    Stereolithography (.stl)
     
  16. Crowndog

    Crowndog F1 Veteran

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    #191 Crowndog, Feb 27, 2012
    Wow, that's pretty cool. Now we need wind tunnel software.
     
  17. Crowndog

    Crowndog F1 Veteran

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    #192 Crowndog, Mar 12, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2012
    So I have tried to approach this from another angle (no pun intended). I tried to look into spoiler designs and patents. I found an interesting discussion on the effect of this type of spoiler which I will reproduce here along with the original patent that is referred to in the discussion. This is just to add more food for thought. May be that the thing was not designed for cooling or downforce but rather to reduce drag!

    "That style of spoiler is more to reduce drag than it is to produce down force.
    It provides an extension of the roof line that allows the airflow to remain attached to a surface then reach a sharp edge were it is easy for the airflow to separate cleanly.

    On the natural roof the airflow will try to follow the rear curve of the roof onto the rear glass but it will not be able to turn that sharply. It will then separate from the surface and create a large wake behind the car. This large wake means high drag.

    By having a slight downward taper to the spoiler the air is able to manage the small change in direction and begin to pull down behind the car before it cleanly separates at the rear edge of the spoiler. This results in a smaller wake, and less drag.

    Do some study/reading of Kamm rear end, he is the engineer that came up with the concept of a slightly tapered rear surface that cuts off cleanly.

    What you are doing is tricking the air flow into behaving like the rear of the car has a very long taper to it by getting the airflow moving along that path then cutting it free cleanly at a sharp surface that does not upset the smooth flow.
    What happens is you form a stable bubble of air that follows the car and creates a shape that acts like a long tapered tail, allowing the airflow to smoothly fill in behind the car instead of tumbling uncontrolled into the big hole you just punched in the air.

    If you need some downforce at the rear of the car put a small upturned "gurney lip" at the end of the Kamm tail, that will create positive pressure on the top of that Kamm tail extension and give you down force with relatively little drag."


    http://homepage.mac.com/christopher.z/hobby/80-MXitems/Information/production/KammbackStory.html


    Argument against the wing for downforce:

    Probably the most popular form of aerodynamic aid is the wing. Wings perform very efficiently, generating lots of downforce for a small penalty in drag. Spoiler are not nearly as efficient, but because of their practicality and simplicity, spoilers are used a lot on sedans.

    The wing works by differentiating pressure on the top and bottom surface of the wing. As mentioned previously, the higher the speed of a given volume of air, the lower the pressure of that air, and vice-versa. What a wing does is make the air passing under it travel a larger distance than the air passing over it (in race car applications). Because air molecules approaching the leading edge of the wing are forced to separate, some going over the top of the wing, and some going under the bottom, they are forced to travel differing distances in order to "Meet up" again at the trailing edge of the wing. This is part of Bernoulli's theory.

    What happens is that the lower pressure area under the wing allows the higher pressure area above the wing to "push" down on the wing, and hence the car it's mounted to.
    Wings, by their design require that there be no obstruction between the bottom of the wing and the road surface, for them to be most effective. So mounting a wing above a trunk lid limits the effectiveness.
     
  18. Crowndog

    Crowndog F1 Veteran

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    #193 Crowndog, Mar 13, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2012
  19. Crowndog

    Crowndog F1 Veteran

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    #194 Crowndog, Mar 13, 2012
  20. spgribben007

    spgribben007 Karting

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    #195 spgribben007, Mar 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  21. Crowndog

    Crowndog F1 Veteran

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    #196 Crowndog, Mar 13, 2012
    Kamm back design!
     
  22. glenv6

    glenv6 Formula 3

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    #197 glenv6, Mar 13, 2012
    Crowndog - I'll buy the kamm theory behind the purpose of the wing/spoiler/whatever, great find... And I have always liked the look of Breadvan!
     
  23. Matto

    Matto Formula 3

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    #198 Matto, Mar 13, 2012
    My favorite Supra.
     
  24. spirot

    spirot F1 World Champ

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    #199 spirot, Mar 14, 2012
    As seen on the other thread the Kamm device is also an attempt to aide laminar air flow ... by product is a bit of air flow into the engine - notice all the dust that collects on your rear bumper... that air is coming up out of the area between body and exhaust...
     
  25. afterburner

    afterburner F1 Rookie
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    #200 afterburner, Mar 14, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I don't think so. The supra is a normal fastback.
    The spoilers influence the departure angle off the roof.

    The Kamm tail design involves cutting off the roof at the point of separation of the airflow, still in a high pressure area, then dropping "vertically". The 2004 Prius is an example (Cx 0.26), and so is the 1940 BMW racing car below. The much prettier Touring bodied original version reportedly had a Cx of 0.35, while the Kamm version was measured at 0.25.
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