Where to start with these CEL codes? | FerrariChat

Where to start with these CEL codes?

Discussion in '348/355' started by jevs, Mar 17, 2012.

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  1. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    Looking for some advice to see where I should start with fixing these codes. I did reset everything and these are what came back after about 45-50 miles. The CEL did not seem to come on until I was "Cleaning it out" on the service road after 45 miles or so of around town driving with no CEL.

    I need to get an emissions inspection and I am sure these are not going to let me me pass.

    P0432 Main Catalyst Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 2)
    P1447 Unknown Trouble Code Description
    P1691 Unknown Trouble Code Description
    P0422 Main Catalyst Efficiency Below Threshhold (Bank 1)
    P0134 O2 Sensor Curcuit No Activity Detected (Bank 1 Sensor 1)
    P1119 O2 Sensor Heater Circuit (Upstream Catalyst) (Bankk 2, Sensor 1) - Short To Ground (Min)
    P1448 Unknown Trouble Code Description

    There are a couple codes that did not return, but these did. I am unsure of the condition of my catalytic converters. I should also note that someone pulled the CEL lamp prior to me buying the car. I have stock headers, stock cats, and Tubi Muffler. The last time I checked it appeared that the bypass valve was opening, but I did not check since the light came back. The car seems to be running fine and I do not hear any exhaust leaks.

    So, where do I start, and what are the "Unknown" codes?
     
  2. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 29, 2001
    17,940
    USA
    #2 f355spider, Mar 17, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Wow, that is a lot of stuff going on. To diagnose, you need to confirm the connectors are not an issue to each component, which will require some inspection and diagnosis.

    You also need the P codes list (see attachment). Just based on the info (making the wild assumption the codes are correct, and not a connector issue) you will at least need new catalysts and new pre-cat O2 sensors. P1447 and P1448 are related to a malfunction of the bypass circuit for the exhaust. (excuse the attachment...it is for a 360, but most cross over. Also whoever made it, scanned the document and then a program read it,and misread some of the numbers) I added the DIY attachment which I believe is the original document... hard to read, but more accurate info.

    The correct Bosch part numbers for the O2 sensors is in the parts cross reference thread at the top of the page.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  3. MManzonelli

    MManzonelli Karting

    Nov 4, 2003
    82
    Columbia, IL
    Full Name:
    Mark Manzonelli
    I would clear those codes and start again........See what you come up with......Some codes show up due to other findings.....
     
  4. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    I did that. These are the ones that came back. However, I just cleared them again. I will read them out again when the CEL comes back, but I fully expect to see these again since theyhave been there twice already. I need to get my lift installed so I can get under that and inspect the connectors and stuff. I have the interior pretty much done now. I just need to install the amp and sub and make some new little boxes for the back.
     
  5. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    I drove about 35 miles. Mix of in town and highway (55mph kind). I also did a nice high speed blast taking the revs up to 8k or so at about the 32 mile mark. No lights came on. Last time it took over 50 miles before they came back on.
     
  6. cf355

    cf355 F1 Rookie

    Feb 28, 2005
    4,208
    Full Name:
    chris
    If your getting intermittent cel's I suggest you go to your local electrical/computer parts store and buy an aerosal can of electrical contact cleaner (safe on plastics).
    Disconnect every connector in the engine compartment (except cpu's) and spray the connectors with the electrical contact cleaner/ next with a compressor (if you have one - or buy an aerosal can to blow dust out of keyboards) blow the connectors till they are dry. Reconnect and go on to the next connector.

    note: they have 2 electrical contact cleaners....one with silicone and one with out. Use the one with out silicone.

    Do not use any dielectric grease (or stabyl)on the connectors.
    Now drive the car and see which cel's return.
     
  7. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    It seems that 53-55 miles is the magic number for the computer to finish "learning" and retrip the codes. They have come back twice now in this range after a reset. I also went to get the emissions this morning after about 35 miles of no CEL and it failed due to not being out of this mode yet, even though it had no codes or anything. Apparently you have to drive at least 53-55 miles before you can get the inspection, so the computer is out of that mode. Safety inspection passed though :)
     
  8. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

    Jun 14, 2009
    3,452
    Dublin, Ireland
    Full Name:
    Greg
    Is it possible for codes to be logged prior to CEL lighting? If so it might be of benefit to see if any are there now as the "early" ones may give you a place to start?
     
  9. WATSON

    WATSON Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 9, 2010
    21,724
    WI
    Can we back up for a bit and learn a little more about what got us here?

    Has this been going on for awhile? ..or did this just all happen at once?

    Did you replace with new, or remove & replace, any of the O2 sensors? Thermocouples? These original or new?

    How old are the CAT ECU's? Do they have black packing or green packing? Did you put new ones in or never touched them? Any wiring work done in the back? has anyone tinkered with the solenoid valves or air pump in the back at all?

    Some background details will help. I just went through a list similar to yours last summer and it is all fixed....but you really need to take a logical, stepped approach to chase this all away.
     
  10. 308nut

    308nut Formula 3
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 22, 2002
    1,881
    NOLA/Covington
    Full Name:
    Wade
    In my experience with the 355 the Cat ECU's there are three of them 2 are located at the rear pass side of the car, the 3rd is the driver side rear on the engine cradle upright. I have found that the resin that seals the electronics over time separates from the plastic housing letting in moisture and resulting in false emission codes. I have replaced these ECU's in several cars and every time it fixes the problems.

    Only once was there actually a problem with a cat or 02 sensor


    The new ECU are sealed with a different type of resin which solves the moisture problem


    Wade
     
  11. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    The same ones seem to come back repeatedly and right when the computer stabilizes. It seams to be real problems, or non-intermittent connection problems (always there).
     
  12. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    These are the first codes to pop after full reset. You just have to drive a certain distance for the computer to stabilize and these come back every time.
     
  13. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    When I first got the car the CEL was pulled from the dash. When I got home I pulled these same codes and a couple more. They have come back the same after 3 or 4 resets. I have put about 1500 miles on the car and the codes have always been there as far as I know. The first 1200 were getting it home with no CEL in the dash to tell me there was an issue. I am not sure if someone was trying to hide the CEL for the sale or if it was pulled because someone gutted the cats and thought this was the best way to deal with the CEL. I would never do that. Seems ignorant to me. You can never tell if your getting a serious code.

    I could not tell you how old the CAT ECU's are and I have not checked what color they are yet.

    I never replaced any engine related parts yet. I have just been focusing on the interior. Now that is done other than speaker boxes and amp mounting, so I will be solving the CEL's next.

    I do not know if anyone messed with the solenoids or air pump, but the bypass valve seems to be working. I do however plan to eliminate this from the system with the custom exhaust.

    The car has 33k miles. I am unsure if headers or cats have ever been replaced, but nothing is leaking and sounds fine. Sure the cats could have an issue, but I won't know till I can take something apart and look at them, or monitor the 02's (if they are working right).

    At this point it is really a matter of getting the car up on the lift and start looking around. Check the connectors. Check for any wires that could be damaged etc. If that all looks good then I will check for bad or possible gutted cats from a previous owner. A couple of the codes look like they could be bad 02 sensors, which could also cause the other faults. I can also monitor the 02's on the laptop and see what they are really doing in relation to each other. I guess I will also be checking out the CAT computers. How dumb are seperate CAT computers Grrr, Ferrari must be modding the signal or something so the Motronic will work with what signal is being produced. Most car computers take the signals direct.

    In summary, cyber troubleshooting is probobly about over with :) I got my two post lift in place and the posts marked. I just need a little more time to finish the install. Unfortunatly time is my arch nemisis.....It always helps speeds things up to get some suggestions here first as others have seen the same issues over and over.

    I have a feeling it is 02 sensors/CAT ECU's and/or bad or gutted cats. There are no leaks and the motor sounds good and it pulls strong like you would expect. The short to ground code should not be caused by an open or intermittent connection though. If they are using proper terminology, then this is truly a short to ground which would be a internally shorted O2 sensor or damaged wires shorting to ground. Since that code starts with a 1 though I believe it is manufacturer specific, so broken english may apply??
     
  14. WATSON

    WATSON Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 9, 2010
    21,724
    WI
    OK.... I'll play:

    1. This code maybe a bad pre cat or unplugged O2 sensor on the driver side:
    P1119 O2 Sensor Heater Circuit (Upstream Catalyst) (Bankk 2, Sensor 1) - Short To Ground (Min)

    2. Which causes this:
    P0432 Main Catalyst Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 2)

    3. This suggests you have another bad or unplugged sensor on the passenger side:
    P0134 O2 Sensor Curcuit No Activity Detected (Bank 1 Sensor 1)

    4. Which causes this:
    P0422 Main Catalyst Efficiency Below Threshhold (Bank 1)

    5. OR you have a bad CAT ECU on one or both sides.
    5A. OR your post cat O2 sensors are unplugged or shot.
    5B. OR you have high flow cats with out O2 extenders.
    5C. OR you have bad cats.
    ANY of the above will also cause #2 & #4

    6. This code suggests you have a bad thermo couple or CAT ECU on the bypass valve (if your bypass valve is operaitonal as you suggest):
    P1448 Unknown Trouble Code Description
    6A. OR the bypass Catalytic's are shot (doubt it)

    7. This code tells you to plug a new bulb into your slow down light socket on the dash ;)*:
    P1447 Unknown Trouble Code Description

    8. Have to look into this one some more:
    P1691 Unknown Trouble Code Description

    After you check all the wiring and the solenoid vacuum, there is a series of stepped replacements and lead swaps to isolate the faulty components. I chased them for a summer....

    In the end I simply put in new ECU's (green packing), O2 sensors (search FC as they are Bosch units and readily available on Amazon) and thermocouples...and still had to chase down a reversed wiring mistake from the shop where the car was "fixed" before I bought it.

    Best of luck......
     
  15. yelcab

    yelcab F1 World Champ
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2001
    12,662
    San Carlos, CA
    Full Name:
    Mitchell Le
    I hate to replace parts, but the after market O2 sensors are so cheap that you should replace all four, and see what codes are gone.

    Then move on to ECUs moisture problem, and bypass valve.

    Good luck.
     
  16. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    I would agree with most of WATSON's logic. Kind of the same things I am thinking at this point. I do have a question.

    How do you know # 7? Do you have list of codes that actually says what that one is? If so, where can I find this. I have a few lists now, but none say that one.

    That code could be because I replaced that lamp with an LED. Any lamps that are actually monitored vs just lighting up, do not like the resistance they see when looking at the LED.

    I am considering just ordering and replacing all four O2 sensors right off the bat. I have not searched yet, but anyone have a link to the ones to get cheep that work? It's almost faster to take those out of the equation rather than diagnose them.
     
  17. WATSON

    WATSON Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 9, 2010
    21,724
    WI
    yelcab is 100% correct.......A few bucks on new O2 sensors wipes out have the list I posted....

    Bosch:
    03819 = pre cat
    03820 = post cat
     
  18. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    I don't see those part numbers for Bosch. I can't find any during a quick search on the net. Rockauto lists some different part numbers.
     
  19. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 29, 2001
    17,940
    USA
    #19 f355spider, Mar 19, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2012
    P1448 is one of three things: Bad catalyst ECU to the bypass pipe, bad thermo probe to the bypass pipe, or a malfunctioning bypass valve. It cannot be the catalysts in the pipe, since there is no O2 sensor to detect that. All there is, is a thermo probe that tells the ECU if the bypass valve is opening and closing when it should be detecting the temperature at the thermo probe just past the valve. Get a helper to confirm the bypass valve is working correctly. If it is, then it has to be either the ECU, thermo probe or the bosch connector to the solenoid that operates the vacuum line. (I suppose the solenoid could fail, but I have never heard of that before)

    I would also agree that I would go ahead and buy new pre cat O2 sensors to start, as well as remove the catalysts and visually inspect them for damage (common after 20k to 25K for the ceramic cores to work loose from the housing and start crumbing...causing the low catalyst efficiency codes). You can buy the pre cat O2 sensors on Amazon (just use the Bosch number 13819 previously mentioned and you can get them for around $75 t0 $80 (plug and play) ready to install with all the connectors on them.

    It is also good advice to clean and check all the bosch connectors. All of your connector boots are probably rotted if they have never been previously replaced...and that means the connections will be dirty, tarnished and possibly filled with water from washing the car or driving in the rain. Dave Helms has the solution to bad boots...his are truly bullet proof replacements.
     
  20. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    So should the Bosch Numbers be 13819 and 13820 then? Previous post had 0's in the front.
     
  21. WATSON

    WATSON Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Sep 9, 2010
    21,724
    WI
    Gah! My bad.

    Pre cat = 13819
    Post cat = 13820

    Sorry about that.
     
  22. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    I ordered 2 Bosch 13819's from Amazon ($160.67 including 2 day shipping).

    I figure if I am getting in there I might as well just have these on hand and put them in. I will clean the mating connector and inspect everything else also. There is a decent chance these will clear things up. I did not see any reason to replace the secondaries at this point since there are no secondary codes. I will post up my results once I get these in, inspect the other parts in the system, and drive about 60 miles to see what happens.
     
  23. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 29, 2001
    17,940
    USA
    That is a start, but no way it will have any impact on the P1448.
     
  24. jevs

    jevs Formula Junior

    Oct 13, 2010
    477
    Missouri
    I put new primary O2's in yesterday and cleared the codes. However, I did find out my cats are empty. I do not hit anything in there when sticking it through the primary 02 hole. I fully expect the catalyst efficiency codes to return, but maybe the other O2 codes will not. I will post the next reading when the code comes back.

    Now I have to figure out what to do about cats.....
     
  25. plugzit

    plugzit F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 1, 2004
    7,673
    Redondo Beach, CA
    Full Name:
    Bruce Bogart
    Point of information:
    It's my understanding that to check the status of cats, all you need to do is point your laser thermometer ($29) at the inlet and then the outlet of the cat. Hot in front, cooler in back indicates cat working. Same or similar temp indicates cat not working.
     

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