Ethanol and aluminum tanks

Why don't you drop by and I can show you the effects on fuel distributors, and hook you up with some engineers and see how the facts differ from what the media, lobbists, and political whores are telling you

Larry Fletcher
www.cisflowtech.com

 

... and when you are done Larry, then I can continue.

My insurance claims pervention inspector made me remove the 20 some beakers of various fuel samples from the shop... hard to argue with that request. Out of an E-10 pump we were getting anywhere from 8% to 18% depending on the local station being sampled years back. At 16% a R7 hose will fail in minutes. Dont worry about the alcohol/water mixture on the bottom... that is a secondary concern. Worry about the thin boundry layer at the separation point... that stuff is caustic and ugly!

Want to discuss aluminum fuel tanks? The USCG insisted on a change to plastic because of what was going INSIDE, not what it was subjected to on the outside. Their theory: "You cant walk away from a burning boat". The USCG has been working on this since the mention of Hog Food based fuel... and they were concerned.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing some pics of that...I'm rebuilding mine now. I'm hoping that ehthanol damage would be curtailed since my distributor is cast iron; is this true?

 

Wouldn't cast iron be more vulnerable to caustics than aluminum?

 

Dave and Larry should answer here. My understanding is that the galvanic potential for cast iron and steel are the same. It's the aluminum that has the higher potential at the boundary layer. However, I'm also concerned about the ethanol effects in the internal passages/filters/elastomers of the distributor.

Bosch made many aluminum CIS distributors.

 

Calcium deposits, melted or brittle and cracking rubber diaphragms, plugged screens... the list of what I am finding is long. Being the respected authority he is on the subject, I will let Larry make the case on the fuel distributors and related. What happens when the buildable cores/parts run out?

Alcohol being hygroscopic and very effective at absorbing water, with the alcohol/water mix settling to the bottom when separation occurs.... Turn the key on and the first thing pumped through the system is this above mentioned swill. Shut it off before going on a drive and mixing this back into suspension and what sits in the distributor?

There was a time when a winter storage theory was to not start the car unless you intended to drive it up to operating oil temp for 30 min's. To heck with the acids in the oil, that was yesterdays concern... drive it around the block 6 times every 25 days, snow or no snow. I designed a re circulation system on a timer years back but have not followed through on it as there are other problems more pressing right now.

 

I'll take some photos of my Amal carbs after sitting for 6 months, take that long to clean them..............

Ask anyone whoever raced Indy/Speedway or Sprints and they'll tell you all about alcohol and aluminium or worse magnesium.

 

The best answer! Combined, of course, with regularly checking/replacing fuel system elements as needed and other normal maintenance. Drive, inspect, maintain, repair. Rinse and repeat. Of course, if you can find fuel without Ethanol...


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... means you should do all of the above anyways

 

I can send you a Fire Proof Locker, like we have to store our flammables here.....

He's right you don't want them just sitting in Shop Space, we keep the cabinet out on the Equipment Yard...open air.

 

Fuel "polishing' quite common on big standby systems here, in hospitals and broadcasting, seems overkill on a car, that you could use for a beer run and solve the problem...

 

Somone needs to sell a home ethanol removal kit. Add water, mix, drain off the lower portion through a spiggot leaving pure gas.

 

That's pretty nice and since it is gravity fed the water and ethanol would run first. it's enough to fill your car. I'll put that on my wish list.

less on amazon

http://www.amazon.com/Moeller-DuraMax-Transfer-14-Gallon-Rolling/dp/B000MT94QA

 

Larry or Dave, or both of you, anyone? I've got E10 stored in a 1/2 filled aluminum container which has been sitting undisturbed in my garage under the same conditions as my cars, for the my last 6 month. The container in not sealed, but opened through a small vent to the atmosphere. I also have a control in which E10 from the same source is stored in a sealed glass container. There is no evidence of separation or corrosion. The fuel in the aluminum container has retained its clarity and color in comparison to that in the sealed glass container. So what wrong with this experiment? Why would this not emulate what is going on in the 1/2 filled aluminum tank of my 308?


Also, I came upon a research paper:

Corrosion of Aluminum in Water-Ethanol Mixture in the Presence of Anthocleista vogelii Extract, by O.O. Adeyemi, Ph.D. and O.O. Olubomehin, M.Sc., Department of Chemical Sciences, Olabisi Onabanjo University. P.O. Box 364, Ago-Iwoye, Nigeria, in which they state, "Ethanol has hydroscopic qualities in it that attracts and mixes with water. At lower concentrations of water (up to 0.5% volume at 60oF), the alcohol will mix and remove the water as the fuel is burned and not harm the engine. At higher concentrations, the water will separate from the fuel and pool at the bottom of its container. This “phase” separation form of water in fuel can cause rust and possibly damage the engine. Fuel that is an E10 blend cannot absorb enough moisture out of the air to cause this phase separation...."

That doesn't preclude the contamination of (any) fuel with water from other sources (i.e. condensation on the inside walls of partially filled tanks). When you talk about calcium deposits, the contamination must be from another source because neither alcohol nor water vapor (which is where E10 will absorb water from the air) contain calcium.

 

After filling up with my local Ethanol-free premium today, I ran into a buy-one-get-one-free deal on Techron, at O'Reilly Auto Parts. Maybe it's a national thing.

 

I suspect but have not wasted time trying to prove.... most of the water comes from condensation absorbed in the underground tanks or at the storage tanks in the fuel depot.

Cant explain why yours doesnt separate John, feel fortunate for that fact! Until I started to understand what we were dealing with, I would take samples at different levels in my samples and have them tested for content at that time, plotting how quickly it was happening. Without question, some brands fell apart quicker than others and I can only contribute that to the additives put into the mix when loaded in a delivery tanker.

In the early 80's I owned a Phiillips 66 back in MN and would get upwards of 180 gals of water with a fill of the underground tanks. With no alcohol in the fuel then, it would separate fairly quickly and I could pump it out with a hand pump in the wee hours of the morning. The tanker driver would put a coffee can full of Super Wizz Bang additive in the top the truck tank just before unloading into my tanks. Finish and then drive across the street and add another can load into the tank and then dump at the Amoco. Cash was King then and the driver was easily bribed to short one for the others benefit..... Dirtiest industry I have ever been involved in but I wanted the building and needed to deal with a pre established contract to sell fuel for a few years. A Fill Up came with having the oil checked... all those little, washable glass fuel filters we used then always had a block of ice in them, if not frozen solid. Water has always been a problem but it was never held in suspension where it was hard to see, like it is now. Dump a load of Hog Food fuel in an underground tank with water in it and the water will just.... go away....to where? HEET was a big seller back then!

 

Doesn't rust? Sure it does... Oxidizes readily and rapidly forming Aluminum Oxide on the surface. That's what prevents further oxidation and is quite tough stuff. However, in a corrosive environment the oxide dissolves also quite readily, thus removing the protective layer.

 

I've never seen teeth on a chicken, or a hillbilly fix a car, and I sure have never seen aluminum rust.

 

Perhaps corrodes is a better word, but since my basic chemistry class years and years ago, the process starts pretty much the same and we just generally called it "rusting". In iron, though oxidation and reduction happens breaking down the crystalline structure. In aluminum, oxidation happens to form a very tough coating of aluminum oxide and prevents further reaction.

 

I have seen teeth on a chicken (a genetic study about dinosaurs and chicken DNA), I know a hillbilly who knows more about engine repair than most (got me started early on when I had my '65 Stang), and aluminum forms an oxide layer when exposed to the elements; it doesn't rust, by definition (since rust is iron oxide by definition), but it does corrode, and some corrosion is destructive. BTW, many applications of aluminum in industry require an oxide layer as protective chemistry and thus limits cleaning methods.

Let's all please understand that we do care what happens to our cars, and it will be exceptional insight that solves this problem, not conventional wisdom.

Of couse, the biggest problem is the ethanol subsidy itself.