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Should Mercs Super DRS be allowed?

Discussion in 'F1' started by Fast_ian, Apr 11, 2012.

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SHOULD Mercs super DRS be allowed?

  1. Hell yeah, they've done a great job

  2. Definitely not - It's not within the rules as written

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Page 4 of 5
  1. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #76 Fast_ian, Apr 13, 2012
    +1

    And a truly world class (& appreciated) nit-picker you are too! ;)

    Please continue.......

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  2. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    #77 DeSoto, Apr 13, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
    Not true, but almost: just because teams managed to get a last minute agreement. Yes to EBD in exchange of no 107% limit. What a "interpretation of the rules", go figure.

    It would be a too much obvious fix of the championship anyways. But if you asked Bernie, I´m sure he prefered to ban it inmediately.

    Why a joke? It was absolutely legal according to the LETTER of the rules.

    Of course we all know that it was indeed very obvious, but what is FIA doing: enforcing the law or rewarding the subtetly to circumvent the law?
     
  3. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #78 Fast_ian, Apr 13, 2012
    In fairness, Lotus didn't protest that it moved, rather that the movement was initiated by the driver pushing the DRS button.

    I know you've read it, but for anyone that hasn't here's their case;

    Ross' response;

    Nothing to do with "moving pipes".

    Cheers,
    Ian
    The complete ruling; http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98738
     
  4. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #79 Fast_ian, Apr 13, 2012
    Circumventing the law is not allowed - Clever interpretations are OK but blatant attempts to come up with stuff that's obviously an unintended consequence of a "poorly" written rule is a no go covered by "the Charlie rule" - Can't remember which article now, but it basically says he can change anything he likes if he feels like it - One reason the rule book is so big now is these guys are clever and try and exploit any OSINTOT that's in there.....

    Cheers,
    Ian
    OSINTOT; "Oh ****, I never thought of that"
     
  5. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    #80 DeSoto, Apr 13, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
    Mmmmmm... just like using the movement of the rear wing to activate something totally unrelated in the front wing?

    It´s a very clever idea, but again: when a cheat is clever is OK for Charlie? How much clever has it to be to be legal?

    I assume that FIA can not foresee everything. All I am asking for is an equal an homogeneous response to the loop holes. Right now, I see that some are tolerated, others are tolerated just till the end of season (forcing teams to spend millions in something that it´s going to be banned) and others are inmediately banned without warning.

    We all know that FIA has a tendency to fix the rules to keep the championship interesting and, as I´m a paranoid and wear a tin hat, I firmly believe they left some grey areas in the rules deliberately to "interpret them" to their convenience.
     
  6. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #81 VIZSLA, Apr 13, 2012
    One could do worse than to be a picker of nits.
    With appologies to the poet :)
     
  7. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #82 VIZSLA, Apr 13, 2012
    And interpretations of circumventions?
     
  8. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #83 Fast_ian, Apr 13, 2012
    Yep! :)

    But, the key is that it's a passive device and as Ross noted, they're all making tweaks to change the airflow when the DRS is activated - Are they all illegal?

    Tolerated = Found legal
    Tolerated till seasons end = We don't like it, but there's nothing we can do as we cannot change the rules mid-season
    Banned = Found illegal as per the rules currently. [The "Charlie Rule" is a powerful thing ;)]

    We're simply gonna have to beg to differ here (which is fine of course!) - I honestly don't believe (at least now Mad Max is gone) the FIA attempts or wants to manipulate the championship - There's too much at stake. I also disagree that they want grey areas, it's just that these guys can find 'em and exploit 'em - Sometimes "legally", sometimes not.

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  9. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #84 VIZSLA, Apr 13, 2012
    Now that the stakes are higher the risk of manipulation is less?
    Hmmm.
     
  10. texasmr2

    texasmr2 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #85 texasmr2, Apr 13, 2012
    Have the stakes ever been any less than this season?
     
  11. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #86 Fast_ian, Apr 13, 2012
    :) and therein lies the rub, huh?

    I firmly believe the FIA really tries to eliminate any OSINTOTs when they update the rules - It's done in combination with the TWG and they do their best. Remember when Ross offered to write the updated diffuser rule - He more or less *told* 'em he had something up his sleeve but they didn't listen and the double diffuser was the result.

    It's certainly a tough one, Charlie does his very best to be fair and honorable with no desire to manipulate the championship - He's the one guy who I genuinely believe wants to do "the right thing".

    FWIW, I'm pretty certain Bernie is totally agnostic on the rules - Not his bailiwick at all and I can't imagine him saying to Charlie "we've gotta ban xyz before abc runs away with the title - As indeed happened last year - If he was meddling "something" would have been found illegal on the RB, but it wasn't and it ran away as we know. No conspiracies here IMO.

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  12. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #87 VIZSLA, Apr 13, 2012
    Sporting or commercial?

    Not only is more money than ever in play this year but the financial structure of the entire enterprise is being renegotiated.
    Yep, I'd say the stakes are high and that everyone has one eye on their money and the other eye on Bernie's hands.
     
  13. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    #88 DeSoto, Apr 13, 2012
    They all are changing the airflow in the DRS. Not using the DRS for something that it was not supposed to do in the other corner of the car.

    They pretended to ban the blown diffuser last year because they said that teams could not use the exhaust for something that it was not supposed to do: alter the air flow with an activated by driver´s action device. What´s the difference with the Mercedes´ DRS?
     
  14. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #89 VIZSLA, Apr 13, 2012
    In the end any decisions made by this sort of process will be arbitrary. Which doesn't preclude them from being equitable. Just makes it a bit less likely ;)
     
  15. texasmr2

    texasmr2 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #90 texasmr2, Apr 13, 2012
    Simply in regards to the WDC and WCC, nothing more and nothing less.
     
  16. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #91 VIZSLA, Apr 13, 2012
    Ah.
    Simpler times.
    ;)
    As much as I'd like to, there is no seperating the commercial from the sporting in the modern era.
     
  17. texasmr2

    texasmr2 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #92 texasmr2, Apr 13, 2012
    Yes and yes.
     
  18. Fast_ian

    Fast_ian Two Time F1 World Champ

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    #93 Fast_ian, Apr 13, 2012
    Ahh, but they've gone beyond that - From the ruling;

    No rule against that.... Again, from the ruling;

    It's a passive device. They couldn't ban the blown diffuser last year because they can't change the rules mid season. It fell into your "tolerated for the season" group.

    Cheers,
    Ian
     
  19. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #94 VIZSLA, Apr 13, 2012
    It occurs to me that for eons we've viewed sports as a displacement for more serious confrontations. Such as war or commerce.
    Now we view commerce and war in sports terms.
     
  20. texasmr2

    texasmr2 Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #95 texasmr2, Apr 13, 2012
    I do not delve into that realm, I only view racing as "racer against racer and man against machine", I like to keep it simple.
     
  21. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #96 VIZSLA, Apr 13, 2012
    Don't ever change :)
     
  22. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    #97 DeSoto, Apr 13, 2012

    There was not a rule about the shape of the wing separator that Ferrari tried last year at Barcelona and it was banned anyways.

    Neither about using the exhaust gases for sealing the floor.

    Nor about the mass damper...

    Etc, etc...

    So Mercedes DRS is legal because it is passive? Just like EBD, the driver just press the pedal and the engine revs up... and "other things happen" without any driver´s action. In Ross´DRS, the driver activates the legal DRS and "other unrelated things happen" too. Not so much difference.

    Just to make it clear, I can´t see why, reading the rule book, Mercedes´ EBD should be banned. But other times Charlie´s guys had made an "strict interpretation" of the rules and had banned (or at least had tried to ban) some things almost as obvious as this. I just can´t see their logic.

    As someone said above, when arbitrarity comes into play, equity is a bit less likely. And Charlie´s behaivour in the past just doesn´t give much confidence to me.
     
  23. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    #98 DeSoto, Apr 13, 2012
    I´m going to frame this quote.
     
  24. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
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    #99 VIZSLA, Apr 13, 2012
    With apprpriate attribution (and royalties) I hope.
    ;)
     
  25. DeSoto

    DeSoto F1 Veteran

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    #100 DeSoto, Apr 13, 2012
    Can you prove that you own the copyright? Nope? Then where is the written law that obliges me to pay?

    And don´t ask me again about that crap of the spirit of the rules.
     
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