scuderia brake pads problem?

use the Search function, lots of info available.

 

Pads already overheated. The stock pads in every single street car are not designed for track use. The compound used by Pagid in the Scuderia brakes (Pagid RS421) labelled as S600, is a sport compound, not a track compound. It is a great for performance driving, but it will damage the CCB rotors when used at the track.

Plenty of people have learned the hard way, by ruining the CCB rotors on street pads during a track day.

Ferrari makes F430 Challenge race pads, and they are a direct fit for the Scuderia.

You can continue to use your street pads, but they won't have the same friction coefficient as before, as the material has been run outside their operating range.

 

Can you run the 430 challenge pads on the street or are they too take to much to heat up?

 

They are ok on the streets, don't need to heat up to stop well. But the F430 challenge pad is a track pad, and given the compounds being used by Pagid on them, they will heat cycle out with street use.

Use the stock pads for streets, and track pads for track days. Swapping pads is extremely easy.

 

I would not combine the stock rear pads with front challenge pads, it would put too much extra wear on the front rotors.

Indeed, the best braking performance I have obtained in the Scuderia is by running a rear pad with more torque (higher grip) than the front pads, as the Scuderia brakes (as well as the F430 challenge cars and F430 street cars) have too much front brake bias.

Just swap the pads at both axles. It is part of track preparation, same thing with tires and wheels.

 

Domi,
Don't know how much you plan to track your Scud. If you will track it more than a couple of times a year, I would look into changing the ceramic rotors for steel. This would give you a greater choice of pads depending on your driving style, tracks you would run on etc.
The steel rotor replacement cost is significantly less than a ceramic replacement, pads are generally less expensive, and you will not lose braking performance. I also believe you will be safer on the street with the steels as they do not need to get "warmed up" to work efficiently.
One last point. If you keep the ceramics,you will need to watch the pad wear very carefully. When the pads are worn ~ 50% or slightly more, you should probably change them to eliminate any risk of the backing plates coming into contact with the rotor surfaces.

 

I, too, feel there is WAY too much front brake bias. (Do we even have rear brakes ?) If the stock Scud = S600 = RS4-2-1, this is a fairly mild compound, per Pagid UK: mu=0.36 cold to 0.45 @ 500oC (max working temp). Is this used front and rear? What might you suggest for a rear pad change to increase the rear bias? I noted the RS-15 has mu=0.50 cold to 0.62 @ 600oC (almost a 40% increase). Problem of course is that Scud pads are few and far between.

My application is street/canyon/AX, so I doubt I would be getting into the really high temps. Any guess as to the temps you are getting into on the big tracks?

 

I have not measured rotor temperatures just yet, but this is information from Challenge cars.

On the F430 Challenge cars the CCB rotors operate in the 1100F-1400F range. The Scuderia doesn't run slicks so brake temperature should be lower (less g-forces during braking). However, the Scuderia doesn't have the front and rear brake ducts in the Challenge cars, and it also carries another 225 lbs over a Challenge car. I expect the Scuderia brakes to operate in a similar range if not hotter than the F430 Challenge brakes.

S600 (stock pads) cannot handle track temperatures, it is the compound used front and rear. I almost wrecked the Scuderia a year ago due to a brake failure. I put my stock front pads (by mistake) thinking they were my F430 challenge pads, brakes overheated and I had to use the runnoff of T10 at Sebring, approaching the turn at 138 mph with no braking power, horrible. I realized my mistake once I went back to the garage. The front stock pads died in less than one hour at the track.

Sebring is brake killer paradise, nothing wear brakes more than Sebring.

S600 (Pagid 4-2-1) are outside the temperature range that CCB rotors produce. CCB rotors run hotter than steel rotors. An autoX won't reach high temperatures, a canyon drive won't do that either, street much less, so you should be fine with the stock pads.

My car has boiled Castrol SRF twice. At my last event, it was the hottest day I ran at Sebring, and I used a new brake fluid for 2 days, I'm sold, Endless RF650 is better than SRF. I just got a case with 30 bottles.

 

Domi,

3 or 4 days a year, stay on CCB. The cost of steel rotors for the Scuderia is high, and steel rotors have about 1/2 the life of CCB rotors (in addition to be more than twice as heavy). My Scuderia gained almost 50 lbs on unsprung weight by going to steel rotors last month. I'm currently looking to run steel for more testing, then go back to CCB rotors.

If your track days are with the typical 4x20 minutes sessions, you would be running just 5 track hours per year, front rotors (based on my wear) should last 40 hours, in your case, 8 years on the front rotors and 16 years on the rear ones.

CCB rotors have come down on prices. Steel rotors cost a little less than 1/2 the current prices of CCB rotors, but they also last 1/2 the time, so costs are very similar. Performance is definitely better with CCB (it can handle higher temperatures, and it saves a lot of unsprung weight).

Notice that the stock pad overheat at around 1,000 degrees F (thanks ArenaRed), while CCB rotors are operating at higher temperatures than this on a racetrack (1100F-1400F).

Bottom line, lack of track preparation has bad consequences, any car. What your car needs is track pads, track brake fluid, and that will resolve it.

 

There are better and cheaper pads than the F430 challenge pads, but I'm still doing testing. I like to test stuff as much as possible before making a recommendation. By testing, I mean looking a data acquisition info from the same racetrack and compare to other events running other setups. I should have an answer in a few months, but very likely it won't be Pagid (the OEM for the challenge pads and stock pads).

 

Any new info on the brake pad testing? I am on RS19 front and RS29 at the rear on my Scuderia. A friend of mine went to a track day with same set up and ended up with partly white pads, is this a sign of over heat or normal? According to Porsche drivers on Rennlist this is normal after bedding in properly. I have done similar track days but never seen the same color change, am I driving to slow ;-)

 

For the first time outing, looks like I'll have to watch out for the tires and now the brake pads. Any good place to buy the challenge pads mentioned in this post? Thanks guys and Rad.

 

Don't forget to break in those pads properly fellas. If memory serves me right the break-in process is like so:

Step1:
Brake 16 times from 80 to 30 (light pressure) with no cooling interval, then 2 min cooling at the very end.

Step 2:
Brake 16 times from 120 to 30 (medium pressure) with no cooling interval, then 3 min cooling at the end.

Step 3:
Brake 5 times with ABS lock from 120 to full stop followed by a 3 min cooling at the end.

I need to pick me up some RS19s & 29s...

 

For the Carbon Ceramic Rotors, bedding in takes a lot longer. This is what I use:

The procedure I use: 50 almost stops, from 60 mph down to 5 mph, enough brake pressure to stop in a 4-5 secs range and not invoking the ABS, heavy braking. The pedal might get soft after 30 or so almost stops, keep doing it. After the 50 iterations, drive on the highway with no traffic for 15 minutes not using the brakes at all, this cooling down is key in this procedure. There is no need for high speed bedding-in with this procedure. If you don't get dizzy after 10 almost stops, you'll be fine for the next 40.

 

Yes, too slow. My Cayenne Turbo is on RS29, my Cayman S on RS29 as well, the pads on these two look Snow White (the actual pad), with the backing plate a very pale Yellow.

When RS19 and RS29 get up to temperature, they get white. These pads fade drastically after 6 track days, they are sensitive to heat cycles.

RS19 is the compound used in the F430/458 Challenge rear pads.

 

I have RS29 on my RS4,love these pads for sport street use,they get a little bit pale yellow only when i stress the brakes on downhills..
Just installed RS19 on the Scud,tried on my first track day and they work pretty well but didn't impress me about stopping power.. despite they still work fine after many laps !

 

F430GT
I have a 08 scud that I bought with 2800 miles and the brakes seem to be weak, can I use this same procedure with used pads to bead them in and get better performance?

 

You can try it but there are no guarantees, depends on the conditions of your stock pads, if they are glazed (due to lack of bedding-in, then hard use) the brakes won't get better.