F430 Surging/Clutch issue | FerrariChat

F430 Surging/Clutch issue

Discussion in '360/430' started by ninja_eli, May 10, 2012.

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  1. ninja_eli

    ninja_eli Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    71
    London
    Full Name:
    Ali
    As per Trent's advise in this thread, I have opened a new thread to discuss this issue. I have copied in the original message and Trent's kind response here for the sake of clarity.

    Original thread here:

    http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=141437161#post141437161

    Thank you so much for the reply. Looking at the documents from the workshop, it appears a throttle potentiometer was "swapped" from left to right bank. I don't know why they didn't just change it but I understand it could be that Ferrari never authorised it.

    My opinion is as you suggest, most likely an electrical problem. It has been there from two years ago now and I cannot believe Ferrari's suggestion of a worn clutch being the culprit.

    The workshop now says that Ferrari consider that it may have been a badly fitted/aligned clutch (this is only after legal proceedings were threatened). Prior to this, they handed the car back to me and said if I wanted the problem to go away, that I needed to install a new clutch (at retail cost to me) and they would not provide "goodwill" to this.

    I have lost all faith in this particular car (easy to do when it won't work for more than 50 miles before stranding you or trying to kill you) and also in Ferrari themselves, who try to absolve themselves of their warranty obligations. What is the point of a new car warranty if such a situation exists for two years without resolution?

    For them to suggest that a car could potentially become a danger to the occupants and other road users merely due to a worn clutch is shocking. This needs investigating further. I don't think it unreasonable to consider such a symptom a danger, and that something should be done to redesign the system to stop sudden WOT whilsts in gear just because a clutch maybe worn. For the record, I do not believe a worn clutch would do that, but this is going by Ferrari's response and diagnosis. The clutch as it was last, was not slipping at all.

    I left it to Ferrari to suggest the workshop to use and they also assigned one of their own technicians to oversee the work (Tony Ciccone). It was they who suggested a new clutch, but also mentioned that the potentiometer was storing an error code which wasn't in the usual Ferrari manual and had to be reference back to Italy for translation and diagnosis. However, the potentiometer came up as a fault previously (as explained earlier). Why they never attended to resolve that, I don't know.

    I have asked for SD3 printouts but have not received it as of yet. I have requested for that again and additionally for the old clutch.

    I will of course keep you all updated on this!

    Thanks again!!!
     
  2. Trent

    Trent Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2003
    2,013
    Indialantic, FL
    Full Name:
    Trent
    Lets be clear on the throttle sensors. There are three assemblies with multiple sensors per assembly.

    Assemblies:
    1. Throttle Position Sensor (aka TPS). This sensor usually has two potentiometers, one that increases and one that decreases as a check and balance. Some of them have a OFF switch as well so when there is no throttle actuation they have a dead switch.

    Part #15 : http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?M=FE&P=&V=diag&I=112015 ~$600 USD

    2. Left Bank - Throttle Body (Servo and Sensor). This is the electro mechanical butterfly valve on your intake runner before the intake manifold and after the MAF. It has two major components. A servo that drives the butterfly physically, its basically a DC motor (lets not get bogged down with the details here). Then there is a potentiometer to measure butterfly angle, there is probably two as in the TPS for the same reason. These pots are usually wired where one goes from 0-5v and the other from 5-0 v and the ECU uses both signals and makes sure they are opposed. (same as the TPS).

    Part #16 http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?M=FE&P=&V=diag&I=112014 $900 USD

    3. Right Bank - Throttle Body (Same as left) : Also part #16

    It sounds like they may have swapped the Left and Right throttle bodies per your note. I dont see how this would help troubleshoot an issue unless the SD2/3 was reporing values out of range for one of the banks. Then after the swap the value would either have gone from bank to bank (faulty Throttle Body), or stayed on the same bank (bad wiring, ground, or ECU). Just swapping L to R is only a diagnosis step, not an attempted fix. Either way the issue would still exist, just on the other bank, and still cause the same symptom.

    My guess after measuring ground potentials and inspecting harnesses to ECU and TCO, I would replace the TPS first.

    How often and what is the repeatability is this issue? If you can make it happen often and at will the troubleshooting will be much easier.
     
  3. ninja_eli

    ninja_eli Karting

    Nov 1, 2003
    71
    London
    Full Name:
    Ali
    #3 ninja_eli, May 10, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This is great stuff, thank you Trent!!

    I don't actually know which of the throttle sensors it relates to. I have a extract of the report and have attached it here. They mention swapping the ECUs from left to right. Obviously the fault continued!

    With respect to repeatability, it is intermittent (relatively frequent) but not able to repeat at will.

    Thanks again!
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  4. Trent

    Trent Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2003
    2,013
    Indialantic, FL
    Full Name:
    Trent
    This report states your TPS was generating errors that were stored in the ECU. Why did they not replace the TPS? Yes its $600, but in ferrari $ thats cheap and a 30min job!

    I say lean on them to replace the TCU, or just do it yourself. It seems like $600 is a small price to pay for a properly running car. Just make a deal with the Dealer that you will swap it yourself, and if it does not fix the issue they will take it as a return item. Seems like a fair deal.

    You also may be able to make the same deal with Ricambi (they are the best guys on earth!) for maybe a restocking fee. Not my call but worth asking. You should be buying from Ricambi anyway, the best prices, great customer service, and FChat sponsors.
     

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