Alignment for rocksteady street tires? | FerrariChat

Alignment for rocksteady street tires?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by fatbillybob, Jul 15, 2012.

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  1. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    29,256
    socal
    Mitch you out there...or anyone else? I know race tires and race alignments. I like twitchiness, toe out fronts, and tossable oversteer. Street performance I know nothing about. What makes rock steady BMW-like streetcar feel that can hit grooves on the freeway at 75mph and track like on rails? Both my wife's BMWX3 and Kid's BMW328 both on runflats with rediculously long lasting 400+ treadwear ratings cut through road imperfections and rain like on rails. Why?
     
  2. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,741
    It's geometry, stiffness, bearings/bushings, and sprigs/roll-bars.

    C&D or R&T did an article on 3 series BMW suspension a dozen-odd years ago. There are a host of interacting components; but basically it comes down to complete freedom of motion in the directionis you want things to move, and complete lack of motion in thoes you do not.

    So the suspension bushings are low friction in the movements required as tires step over bumps, or the car rolls, dive and squats, but the bushing strongly resist forces in the 5 other degrees of freedom.

    The springs and shocks are pointed towards the center of the contact patch laterally, and there is a small but stable amount of pneuumatic trail longitudinally. {The difference between pneumatic trail and caster is that one is an angular measurement the other is the linear measurement on the surface of the road.}

    The kingpin inclination also points near the center of the contact patch, but you want "just that bit" of pneumatic offset where on the king pin as opposed to the springs and shocks.

    The pair of geometric points causes road surface iregularities to create understeering effects, which comforts the driver. Thus, wind gusts, bumps, potholes, and other effects
    are absorbed with aplomb.

    In the steering plane, you want the kingping inclination to be near the center of the contact patch so the steering effort has to pull the outside of the tire and push on the inside of the tire with the least amount of force. For example; conside the situation where the kingpin inclination intersects with the inside of the front tires. The steering effort has to scrub the whole width of the contact patch forward. This has 4 times the effort as when the KPI points at the center of the contact patch.

    All the bearings in the steering need to be perfectly stiff in the non-rotation directions, and perfectly free in the rotation direction. Wheel, shaft, steering box/rack, tie rods, hubs,...

    Up front, one wants just enough toe-in to obtain the proper front tire temperature (so they don't run too cold compared to the rears), just enough camber for a nice rectangular/oval contact patch, such that the pneumatic trail is well within the contact patch, but significantly forward of the center. This generates the self centering effects so the car drives straight when there is no hands on the steering wheel.

    Out back, one want just enough camber to generate long tire milage and proper tire temperature, and a hair of toe-in to prevent toe-out under any circumstances of brake, power, corner. Having the rear toe-in just a bit more than the front (in a force sense) creates aerodyamic understeer response to wind gusts. That is: the rear toe-in in times the rear tires width is just slightly greater than the fron toe-in times the front tires width.

    Spring rate and sway bar selection: Consider a car under maximum deceleration (brakes). The front end dives, the rear end raises from weight transfer. Now consider the transition from maximum braking to maximum latteral accelration. Herre is the trick, you want the outside front tire and the inside rear tire not to move (up/down) durring the transition.

    A typical wheelbase (100-odd inches) is about 50% bigger than the typical tract (66 inches). Thus, to have the same (up/down) movement on the suspension at the contact patch for both maximum braking and maximum lateral, one needs the anti-roll bars to generate 1/3rd of the force of the spring on the contact patch. If you do this then the outside front and inside rear tires "do not move" durring the transistion.

    The suspension engineer can then transfer some of the rear anti-roll bars force to the front antirool bar by making the rear bar smaller in diameter and increasing the front bar's diameter. This transfer of force from the rear to the front creates understeer.

    Summarizing: low friction on [parts you want to move, no movement in directions you don't want movement, and then making the geometry of the suspension components "point" at teh right places, and fianlly, setting up the suspension so that all external inducements of force crate understeering responses from the car. BMW then goes the extra mile (so do a few others) so that the driver can command oversteer under power (i.e. understeer never becomes excessive.)
     
  3. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    29,256
    socal
    Mitch,

    Thanks for your insights. I got everything except the kingpin stuff. Now I start doing some homework on that. I have never race tuned a BMW suspension for the track so I don't know how they respond. I have never felt Ferrari go that extra mile as you say on their streetcars. A ferrari will get stuck in a road groove and veer off course 9 out of 10 times. What charactoristic/compromise has ferrari seem to build into their suspension design to make such a tunable suspension for trackwork yet not seem to do that for street obstacals like BMW? How much of this inability to handle road variations, is a street BMW's high profile 70 series tires vs the 30's or 35's you might see on a modern ferrari?

    Road variations I define as L.A. style making a carpool lane out of the road shoulder with drainage grates in it, mismatch in road segment heights, mixing concrete and asphalt tarmac on the same street, grooved under maintained roads like they had endless winters of studded tires, tree roots bulging up the road, a manhole cover higher than road grade.
     
  4. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,741
    On an a-arm car (Ferrari) the kingpin is a virtual line that passes through the pivot point at the top of the front suspension where the hub rotates, passes through the bottom of the hub where it rotates, and intersects the roat inside the contact patch.

    On a strut car (BMW 3 series) the king pin is defined by the way the front hub rotates around the shock (i.e. strut). Here, the forces on teh movement are minimized when the srping is coaxial with the strut, but tire clearance problems make the spring pitch inwards for tire clearance.

    If you lower a car with struts, you need to raise the chassis pickup points the same amount the car goes down to put the control arms are the desired (nearly flat) angle with respect to the road surface.

    This effect is called 'tramlining' and wider tires tramline worse and are harder to control than taller or narrower tires. Stiffer sidewalls help, so do stiffer bushings and basically stiffer stuff anywhere. Here the tall BMW tires simply do not generate the effect, so there was nothing to get rid of. Race cars fromthe lat 20's understood the effect, and until steel belts and radial belts came on the scene, you simply couldnot make tires wide with out suffering.

     
  5. fatbillybob

    fatbillybob Two Time F1 World Champ
    Consultant Owner

    Aug 10, 2002
    29,256
    socal
    Mitch you are totally on target. On track my life seems pretty simple racing a C5Z06 SCCAT1 car on beautifully manicured racing surfaces. Dumb simple hillybilly stupid go fast. I'm sort of dinking around with my 550 with visions of a capable dual use car I can drive to the track in the heat of summer and just drive. What I got so far is a 550 that can do neither well. Ferrari-wise I come from 8cylinder mid-engines. The stock 550 is a really good corvette without the corvette hop. Trying to get my 550 to handle more like my race corvette, It is funny that I have discovered all the problems you write about. Tramlining in particular got worse. The narrow stock 255 tires do not do that. I went to 285's dot lamer race tires (r888) using rear wheels (which also widen the track) on the front and the turn in is awesome crisp and fast chassis response (I really like it) but with tramlining and dead steering feel using an enhanced FHP steering ECU. At maranello skunkworks Dave made us switchable steering ECU's and this tire combo needs No ECU in the rack to feel the best. Dave's MSW design was to use stock ECU and then FHP ecu switching in and out on driver command. I took it a step further using the FHP and No ecu for the least power in the rack. If roads are proper there is no tramlining. Everything is conspiring against dual use. Wide sticky tires, wider track, stiff sidewalls is all making for a lame streetcar. Unfortunately, I think skinny hard as a brick street tires need to go back on the car and I'll just have to trailer my 550 to the track and swap on to fat race tires. Boy does that suck! I'm not sure I can find a dual use compromise I can live with.

    355 and aero center of pressure at what speed is this happening. I did not think there was any real significant aero until 120. Even the best CFD wings I've seen make 300lbs at 120mph. I would think the ACoP effect would be a non-issue. Maybe i'm insensitive but when I ran my first 4" splitter tests on my 348 racecar at around 120mph I got dreaded Aero oversteer and had to correct it with the rear wing angle. That is a big splitter but does that angled hood area really make that much force? I guess the answer is yes. And yes I'm happiest with some slip angle!

    Hey on those BMW's with struts if you can't raise the pickup points are you dead in the water for lowering the chassis? It seems that I see many lowered generic BMW's and the M3 specifically appear lower than other 3 series so maybe there is an acceptable range of lowering that does not kill the geometry too much, since I would think BMW would make only one 3 series chassis for cost savings. Thoughts?
     
  6. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,741
    When you lower a strut car without raising the pick up points, the roll center is lowered. THis causes the car to roll excessively, and thereby requires significantly heavier springs (compared to a strut car lowered but the pickpu pointsraised properly.

    The only thing preventing you from raising the pickup points is access to welding equiptment.

    Also note when one lowers a car, one upsets the bump steer on the steering arms--perfectly OK for racing,not so OK for street driving (or mindless cruising down interstates.)

    One can change the pickup point at the bottom of the hub and not have to raise the chassis pick up points. That is the factory/near factory guys may have access to a part that is little known (and the ricers basically don't care.) The real trick is to leave the a-arm angle between the chassis pick up point and the hub pickup point the same before and after lowering.
     

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