GTO Clarification Thread | FerrariChat

GTO Clarification Thread

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by El Wayne, Jul 17, 2012.

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  1. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ Staff Member Lifetime Rossa Owner

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    It's not uncommon to hear the question of how many 250 GTOs were built (or how many are still in existence) draw numerous conflicting answers. Thumb through a few books or do an online search and you'll find various sources that place the number at 33, 36, 38, or even 39. The truth is, the question has to be more specific if one expects to receive a definitive response. Here's why:

    In my opinion, there were and are 36 cars that could actually be called 250 GTOs, one of which would never be recognized on sight as such because it received, from new, a body almost identical to the contemporary 330 LMB. In fact, some refer to this car as the "250 LMB."

    Of the 35 other cars, three were bodied from new in the 1964 style, completely different from the "1962" style that most people associate with the term 250 GTO.

    Of the remaining 32 cars, four were rebodied by Scaglietti (in-period) to the 1964 style and remain in this configuration today.

    So far, this means that 36 250 GTOs were built, 32 of which originally appeared as most people think a 250 GTO should, and only 28 such cars fit that description today.

    Now, to add to the confusion, three other cars were produced with original 250 GTO-style bodies. All three received 4-liter 400 SA engines from new. One was built on a (slightly modified) 250 GTO chassis, one was built on a modified and lengthened 250 GTO chassis, and one was built on a 400 SA chassis. All three of these cars are often referred to as "330 GTOs," yet I prefer to reserve that designation only for the one built on the lengthened GTO chassis. The other GTO-chassis car is more correctly identified as the one and only "330 LM" (a supposed factory designation) and, to me, the final car is simply a (very special) 400 Superamerica that looks like a 250 GTO.

    In addition to this, there are four 330 LMBs, which are not GTOs at all, but are sometimes lumped in with them. Go figure.

    Anyway, here is the breakdown as I have it:

    1962-63 250 GTO
    1. 3223 GT
    2. 3387 GT
    3. 3413 GT (rebodied to ’64 style)
    4. 3445 GT (rebodied by drogo, later returned to orginal style)
    5. 3451 GT
    6. 3505 GT
    7. 3527 GT
    8. 3589 GT
    9. 3607 GT
    10. 3647 GT
    11. 3705 GT
    12. 3729 GT
    13. 3757 GT
    14. 3767 GT
    15. 3769 GT
    16. 3809 GT
    17. 3851 GT
    18. 3869 GT
    19. 3909 GT
    20. 3943 GT
    21. 3987 GT
    22. 4091 GT (rebodied to ’64 style)
    23. 4115 GT
    24. 4153 GT
    25. 4219 GT
    26. 4293 GT
    27. 4399 GT (rebodied to ’64 style)
    28. 4491 GT
    29. 4675 GT (rebodied to ’64 style)
    30. 4713 GT (original 330 LMB-style body)
    31. 4757 GT
    32. 5095 GT
    33. 5111 GT

    1964 250 GTO
    34. 5571 GT (1964 original with ’64 style body)
    35. 5573 GT (1964 original with ’64 style body)
    36. 5575 GT (1964 original with ’64 style body)

    "330 GTO/330 LM"
    1. 3765 LM – “330 GTO” or (more correctly) "330 LM" – GTO with 400 SA engine (GTO chassis tipo 539/566, 4-liter SA engine, ’62 GTO style body)
    2. 4561 SA “330 GTO” – GTO with 4-lilter 400 SA engine and GTO chassis extended to 2450mm (GTO chassis tipo 539/566 [extended], 4-liter 400 SA engine, ’62 GTO style body)

    400 Superamerica
    1. 3673 SA – 400 SA with GTO body (400 SA chassis tipo 538, 4-liter 400 SA engine, ’62 GTO style body)

    330 LMB
    1. 4381 SA (330 LMB)
    2. 4453 SA (330 LMB)
    3. 4619 SA (330 LMB)
    4. 4725 SA (330 LMB)

    Need more confusion? You got it! First of all, some people argue that 3673 SA wasn't originally bodied in the GTO style but was, in fact, originally bodied to resemble a 250 SWB. In addition to this, others even claim that 4561 SA was built on a 400 SA chassis, and not a modified GTO chassis. None of this matters when it comes to answering our original question, however, because I wouldn't count either of these two as "250 GTOs."

    Again, let me state that, in my opinion, there were and are 36 cars that could actually be called 250 GTOs. Of course, I can see how others might arrive at a different figure. Either way, I hope that this thread helps clear up some of the public confusion.

    PS: Did I make any errors? If so, it wouldn't be the first time. Please feel free to post any corrections. Thanks!
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2012
    El Wayne, Jul 17, 2012
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  2. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Excellent. Thanks very much for the above information. Many here will appreciate it. Now what do you think 3763 SA was originally bodied as? I've re-read the barchetta.cc info on the car here: http://www.barchetta.cc/english/all.ferraris/detail/3673gt.250gto.htm and they think it was a GTO. They also question c/n 3765 LM, as you have listed, as not being the car that ran at the Nurburgring 1000km reasoning that it wouldn't have LM in its c/n as it was intended for Le Mans where they think it debuted. Doug Nye in "Ferrari The Red Dream" states that there were 3 x 4 litre GTO. Lots of other places say there were 3. I thought I'd got to the bottom of it earlier but not sure at all now. Hmm.
     
    miurasv, Jul 17, 2012
    #2
  3. readplays

    readplays F1 Rookie

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    Hello El Wayne,

    I have always considered 3765 the sister car to 0808 but have not seen much of this from others. 0808 was the 'Super TestaRossa', the SF entered 330TRiLM for '62 Le Mans (and outright winner). Well, 3765 was, to me, the 'Super GTO', the SF entered 330GTOLM for '62 Le Mans. Like 0808, one of a kind. Something to think about.

    Here's something to help muddy up your 36 250 GTO's.
    When the factory/SF sold 3765 into private hands in 1963, it was with factory supplied 250 motor #0796. So it was then a 250 GTO, was it not (the 37th 250 GTO)? :)

    Best,
    Dave
     
    readplays, Jul 17, 2012
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  4. readplays

    readplays F1 Rookie

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    Please see Post #4 this should settle once and for all that 3673 was not the Nurburgring car, therefore has zero competition history, and was never a GTO to begin with.
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=364669

    As for 4561, it does have 2 races in UK 3 years after it was completed to its credit. But Lussos, Boanos, steel 275GTB's (2 and 4 cam), and other road models all have within their ranks one or more c/n's that were entered into a race or races by privateers.
    For me, 4561 will always be a 400 SuperAmerica built with a special body (longer, but in the style of GTO) for Ferrari friend/supplier/board member Cavallier- not a GTO- until someone definitively proves otherwise.
    Just my opinion.

    Best,
    Dave
     
    readplays, Jul 17, 2012
    #4
  5. zjpj

    zjpj F1 Veteran

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    Great thread
     
    zjpj, Jul 17, 2012
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  6. El Wayne

    El Wayne F1 World Champ Staff Member Lifetime Rossa Owner

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    I haven't personally done any of the leg work to verify one way or another but, based on what I've been told by reliable people who say that they have seen factory documentation, I tend to believe that 3673 SA (you have accidentally transposed the two middle digits) originally wore 250 SWB bodywork.

    Doug actually posts here from time to time and he might respond otherwise, but I would assume that he is referring to 3673 SA, 3765 LM, and 4561 SA. See my comments on each above for clarification. If someone wished to touch lightly on the topic without going into too much detail, I can see how they could group these three as "330 GTOs."
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2012
    El Wayne, Jul 18, 2012
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  7. 4re Nut

    4re Nut F1 World Champ

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    4re Nut, Jul 18, 2012
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  8. velocetwo

    velocetwo F1 World Champ

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    What about the early car that was modified by Bizzarrini under the orders of Enzo? Like 2053GT? Wouldn't this be the first GTO?
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2012
    velocetwo, Jul 18, 2012
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  9. kare

    kare F1 Rookie Consultant

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    Now try proving that.

    Referring to build sheets created six months after the serial number was first created, do not qualify as proof.

    Best wishes, Kare
     
    kare, Jul 18, 2012
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  10. Dipsomaniac

    Dipsomaniac F1 Veteran

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    Thanks for that El Wayne that's great information.

    I've always wondered how many of the "original 36" are actually accounted for today?
     
    Dipsomaniac, Jul 18, 2012
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  11. GTE

    GTE F1 World Champ

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    about 112
     
    GTE, Jul 18, 2012
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  12. readplays

    readplays F1 Rookie

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    Usually a fair Point, Marnix, and the humor is not lost on me. However, in the case of the 36 c/n's listed, I know of not one whose chassis 'claim' is contested, making this group history somewhat easier to follow than some other comp Fcars.

    Best,
    Dave
     
    readplays, Jul 18, 2012
    #12
  13. Daytonafan

    Daytonafan F1 Rookie

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    IIRC 4561 was the only 4.0 'GTO' fitted with the 5 speed gearbox from the 250GTO. Does that gearbox fit in a 400SA chassis? I know it won't fit into a 250SWB chassis without modification.

    Doesn't prove your argument one way or the other but worth asking the question.
     
    Daytonafan, Jul 18, 2012
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  14. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    miurasv, Jul 18, 2012
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  15. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    1. So 3673 SA never had a SuperAmerica body on it, even very briefly when made. I guess this isn't really that important as it's a given that the chassis is SuperAmerica.

    2. The real question is whether the factory put a GTO or a SWB body on this car very early after being made or indeed when made?

    3. Did Willy Mairesse or somebody have an accident outside the factory resulting in damage that the car would need rebodying? If so is this when the car got its second SWB body or was it the first SWB body because the car had a GTO body at the time of the accident?

    4. Is it a fact that the car had a SWB body on it for many years before DK Engineering rebodied it as a GTO in the late eighties?

    5. Did the factory put any SWB bodies on any other car that was not a SWB?
     
    miurasv, Jul 18, 2012
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  16. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3 Honorary

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    I, as well as others, have photos of 3673 with its original SWB style bodywork. It existed in SWB form until the late 70s-early 80s before it was REBODIED in GTO style bodywork. 3673 DOES NOT belong in ANY discussion related to 250 GTO, 330LM, 330 LM Berlinetta.
     
    DWR46, Jul 18, 2012
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  17. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3 Honorary

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    As to 3765, I have the factory Build Sheets showing the preparation for the Nurburgring and the subsequent engine and gearbox rebuilds and rear axle ratio change in preparation for LeMans. All work is dated on the factory records and corresponds with a actual date of the races..
     
    DWR46, Jul 18, 2012
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  18. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Thanks, DWR46. Did you work at Ferrari or please could you let us know how you know or have this information? Thanks again.
     
    miurasv, Jul 18, 2012
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  19. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO F1 Rookie Consultant

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    There are some photos with #3673SA in this book during the 20th anniversary tour, with Fabrizio Violati. Another photo when owned by Paul Vestey.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    GIOTTO, Jul 18, 2012
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  20. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3 Honorary

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    Lets do some more to clarify 3673. I have the factory Build Sheets for this car. It is 100% stock 400 Superamerica. It even had Bosch distributors. Motor, Gearbox and Rear Axle are standard street 400 SA components. The fuel tank is a standard 400SA tank. Both front and rear springs are standard 400 SA.

    The Build Sheets describe the bodywork as follows: the word "Farina" is typed in, but then crossed out and "Scaglietti SA" is typed in and then the word "Berlinetta" is added by hand.

    In February of 1976, I researched this issue with the factory. They replied to me in a letter dated 26 February 1976. I had asked about 3671 and 3673 as to what these cars were. Ferrari replied " Car N. 03673SA- It is a Superamerica unit type 410 (they were wrong) SA, Berlinetta Scaglietti. It went out of the Factory on 19th November 1962. It a unique car of the production order Berlinetta Scaglietti."

    The factory then said " It is therefore obvious that none of these 2 units may have been raced at the Nurburgring 1000 Kms on 28th may 1962."

    In the same letter, the factory refers to chassis 3765 as a "Berlinetta type 330 LM (Competition Berlinetta)". This is why I have always called this car a 330 LM. What the factory used is good enough for me.
     
    DWR46, Jul 18, 2012
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  21. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3 Honorary

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    Steve: to answer your question, I have been doing this for almost 50 years now. I have over 2000 sets of Build Sheets. I am one of the original dinosaurs. I just got around to joining Ferrari Chat. It is a great forum, just make sure that when people say something, that they disclose their source. History without sources is mythology.
     
    DWR46, Jul 18, 2012
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  22. miurasv

    miurasv F1 World Champ

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    Thank you very much for your very informative replies. I appreciate your sharing this information very much.

    Do you know why or for what reason Ferrari bodied 3673SA, a SuperAmerica engine and chassis, as a SWB Berlinetta?

    Also, welcome to Ferrari Chat and I hope that you continue to contribute here and share with us some of the vast information that you have. You're obviously an excellent source.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2012
    miurasv, Jul 18, 2012
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  23. ClassicFerrari

    ClassicFerrari F1 World Champ Lifetime Rossa

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    Great thread! This should even be a sticky ;)

    I've always wanted to hear from the experts. Which GTO would be considered to be the most sought after and why?

    Best,
     
    ClassicFerrari, Jul 18, 2012
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  24. DWR46

    DWR46 Formula 3 Honorary

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    Steve: I do not know the story behind the SWB bodywork on 3673. Most probably somebody wanted a "fast" SWB. That is a good question for Marcel, as he possibly has the italian registration documents for the car.
     
    DWR46, Jul 18, 2012
    #24
  25. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

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    in the other thread that started this discussion ( post #9 ) you mention the Ferrari Market Letter will be addressing this discussion as well in a future issue... what is your affilliation with FML ?
     
    cheesey, Jul 18, 2012
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