Rossion or SPF gt40

I would go for non-R version...especially since they ride so nice you will certainly take it on the street more than you think. AC is great to have and works quite well. LHD w/cable shifter will work very well on track. You will have no regrets!

Brian

 

Well, after sitting back for a while and letting the OP sort all this out a little, this is where I think we are at.

Originally he posted that he wants something comparable to his small displacement, lightweight Lotus but maybe a little more track orientated. Something with a Very Direct Feel and very visceral in nature. Two Lotus Qualities I think everyone here can agree on.

He has actually driven the Car you guys are trying to "sell" him on and he didn't even like it. I will admit that the SPF GT40's are Very nice. If I could afford one I would probably buy one. But one thing is for sure, It will not give him the same driving experience a Radical will. In fact I would bet it is the exact opposite of his Lotus.

If you guys have a Big old 8 Cylinder in the GT40's then why not compare it to a SR8. I think that would be a little more fair.

Go Drive even a SR3 at Spring Mountain in Las Vegas. It is quite a Car. I can only imagine what a SR8 is like.

At 100K Plus for the GT40, you could find a DAMN Nice SR8 with Trailer, Rig and all the support stuff you needed.

And enough with driving this Car on the Street, whatever it ends up being, YOU HAVE A WICKED LOTUS for that!!!

If you do go for the GT, get the R Version!!! AC is for Hyundai's!

Again, just my 2 cents. It's just fun to debate about cars......

Ron

 

I liked the GT 40 just did not love it the way I thought I would. The issues I had with it may be sortable in terms of steering feel, the car I drove was a Big block street car.
So a track orientated one may be more direct in suspension and steering, but would have to try one first.

Much consensus here and on the rossion and lotus sites seems to be that nothing is really going to feel like the lotus, including some feedback from people who own both. So maybe the interim step is to supercharge the lotus, and do some nitrons for the shocks, but this delays getting something additional, which may or may not be a good idea. Also the lotus is just so much fun as it is why turn it into something different.

I even though of selling the boxer and going for a new porche GT3 as a replacement street track car, but they dont make GT3's anymore, they are prohibitive to run on the track, and would you really push a 150K new factory car on the track? I guess if money no object, but while I have some $ its not unlimited and still needs to be able to fit within some form of relative sanity.

Plus I have had the boxer so long through thick and thin, it will hopefully be with me for a long long time.

I dont see where a srt8 can be had for 100K. but I am also going to try a radical, my caveat there is that for tracking days a radical seems like overkill in the extreme. I mean who would you drive against.

SPF GT40's can now also apparently be raced in some historic events HSR and SVRA, which has appeal, because as much fun as tracking is, it is just practice and it would be nice to compete everey now and again as time permits.

In any event if one were ordering a SPF it takes 6 months to deliver so I have untill Oct to decide in order to have car for spring. Will look for more track info on SPF GT40's and try to test one or two others.

Would be nice not to have to decide and get them all, but then more than lucky to have what I have already.
The outliers are also the RCR superlight and Ultima.

So as I write this, I am thinking that its best to go to FL and try a Rossion, travel to NC and try a SPF GT40 again. Try a Nissan GTR if possible, see what the press says about the new Viper and then maybe the answer will be clear as day. One thing I know, when I drove an elise the first time, there was no decision to make, I just knew it was great and one of the great's, kinda like when I rode the first fireblade, somewehere one of these other cars will feel the same. I know the answer might be go for a 458 but that is alas way out of budget range and once again would you really track it.

 

Again, put some R compounds on the SR3 and it will play nicely with many modern day Street/Race Cars. Then if you want to go faster you instantly can with a set of Slicks. It is also a good way to learn to drive the car.

Will I ever drive mine at the full capabilities of the Car?? Probably not anytime soon. Am I having more fun than I have ever had on 4 wheels?, WITHOUT A DOUBT!

You have to shop for a while but SR8's do come up for anywhere 70-90K. Again, you have to be patient.

The SLC is another Car that I am very taken with. There is one on Racing junk right now turn key for 75K. That might actually be your best option right now. Go have a look, its Silver.

Good Luck!

Ron V

 

sean,

just get serious about buying a serious car and get an fia papered chevron or lola vintage sports racer w/ a cosworth bda, bdd or bdg. it will be rocketship fast, run in any vintage event on the planet and be worth more money in 10 years than the day you bought it!

a true purpose built raver and all you can handle on the fun scale!!!

 

If the Cash is there, this Statement is probably the Best one so far.

 

+1!

 

Thanks
for all the great input and advice.

I have seen a few Chevron B16 advertised, they went back into prod and have FIA papers. Plus it is surtely one of the most sublime shapes out there.

Will add to list.

BTW anybody have comparative track times of say a
GT 40R
Chevron B16
Vette Zo6
Porche GT3

 

gt40r and chevron are different animals altogether...

but if your considering z06 and gt3 then dont forget about the gtr. it will amaze you street and track.

 

Rule out the Vette and the Porsche, Surely you want to go faster than that??

Otherwise just supercharge the Lotus. Don't get me wrong, I love both the Porsche and Vette, but don't you want a car you can grow into a little??

I know I would be bored of the Vette and the Porsche in Less than 10 Trackdays. Look out Wallet, I am going to pour money into something that will never be Great, been there, done that.

I am 6 Track days in with the Radical and I feel like I haven't even scratched the surface yet, because I havn't. Not even close.

Buy something FAST!!! Race Car Fast!

 

+1 on all the positive SPF GT40 comments. I have a MKI, running a Roush small block with 8 stack injection and I love it. I raced Spec Ford in SCCA for years and always wished for more power and speed. I was about to invest in a Lola T90/91 but decided on the GT40 because it's my favorite LeMans champ of all time. It did not disappoint me. Hauling a$$ through the kink at Road America is epic. And I drive it 2 1/2 hours to the track, run it and drive back it home. You can't do that with a Lola. But remember, we're talking about a very exact copy of old racing technology, so don't compare it with modern cars. Still, with its modern brakes and shocks its way more car than most can handle. If you get one you have to have Dennis Olthoff set it up. He did mine and it's been great. Hands off stable on the straights and just claws through corners. I have the Avon tires.
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Thanks for the coment. I see you have thew wide rear end. Dennis seemed to think this made no difference other than being too wide for many trailers, love the look and more grip always good. Your car is a LHD, how is the shifting. Love the idea of a small block(is it a 302) with the 8 stack FI, what is motor spec? do you have a dry sump. How simple/complex is the miantanance?
What suspension do you have, your car is not an R? What pads do you use, do brakes hold up? do you have any type of roll cage?
Have you raced it or is it just for occasional trackdays.
Sorry about all the questions, but actual experience, data and feedback is great epospecialy if the car has been driven on the track.

Love the color and look of your car, interested in why you chose the spec you did and how it has worked out, what might you do differently.

Thanks
Sean

 

This is a great thread but I would like to add one important thing:

You all know that "orientated" is not a word, right? The word you're really looking for is simply "oriented."

 

sean,

sean,

that does not look like the "spa" rear but the standard mk I rear. nsxr has the wide spa rear and his is also rhd w/ proper side shifter. the small blocks are generally 302 but the proper mkI used a 289.

 

we were just "conversating"

 

Nsxr says his is actualya lhd just looks r spec.

 

i may be wrong but i think his mkI is rhd and his mkII is a lhd?

at any rate, glad you are not going to sell the boxer!!!

 

Classic, Pete. That made me laugh.

 

Depends on specification, mods, tires and most of all driver, but at VIR:

GT-40R 2:04-2:05
B16 (BDG) 1:58-1:59
C6 Z-06 2:05-2:06, usually 2:07-2:08
997 GT3 2:05-2:06, usually 2:08-2:09

(T91/90 Lola 2:00-2:01 )

 

Ok believe it or not, according to my wife I spend more time on this subject than practicaly anything else. Assuming she is right here are some conclusions for me based on this thread.

First, My grammer and spelling shows no sign of improvement since school, so thank you for bearing with me.

On the topic of the cars.

I can break them dopwn into a few broad categories.

A.. Starting with the original premise, Rossion or SPF, I can say that both here,and on the lotus and Rossion sites no one recomends tracking a rossion, which is curious. Some Rossion owners feel their car is too new/nice and some also have a lotus which they feel is more viceral raw etc on the track. One also gets the sense that a rossion with turbos and huge power mich just be a little too much and too explosive for the track. Lastly besides track days you cant have any possibility of racing the car, and I suspect there is development to go in terms of peoples experince and the little bits brakes bearings etc on the track. So lets scratch the rossion.

B. Factory Street cars that are trackable. ie Porche Gt3, Nissan Gtr Vette, Viper and possibly a few others. These are eliminated for now because they will be expensive and complex to run, and there is practicaly no end to the upgardes needed for serious tracking after which you really have neither a street car not a track car. On the plus side they are turn key.

C. Fully track dedicated cars, which fall into a 3 categories.
Loti such as a 211 or Exige V6. The 211 is an open car(a negative for me), but fast and predictable, can be raced in lotus series and relatively inexpensive to run, but is used probably abused, although there are still one or two new ones out there. Exige V6 probably faster but is as far as the Us concerned a paper car. Both of these come with all the track bits, are turn key and a natural progession in terms of performance from where I am now. But one no longer produced and the other does not yet exist, and somehow neither seem like something to keep forever as time will fade their relative perfomance and possible use.

We can also add a radical to this stew and maybe a Ultima and RCR. The radical sounds great, but is maybe a level of performace too high, I here they are maintance intensive, are economical to buy and run though. An Ultima may have great performance be reasonable to run but just be overkill everywhere, plus you cant really race it if you want to. The RCR has a appeal, but is a bit of a science project and has the drawbacks of the other two. Plus all of these are function over form and asthetics mechanicaly and to the eyse are a factor, but maybe a false one.

D. Historic cars. Here we have the GT40 and others such as the Chevron. I love the Chevron and Idea of it, the performance is relevant today, it is one of the greats and like all these historic machines asthetics are second to none. Plus it is welcome practicaly everywhere, which means it can be a keeper into old age. On the negative from what I see a great continuation with FIA papers etc in top shape is not going to be less than $150-200K in the Uk. yes it will retain value depending on maintanance, and as a pure race car will need lots of it. It might be a bridge too far for me now but maybe a drive would be so convincing that there would be no question this is the way to go. Also on the negatrive would be any type of crash protection, while the ones advertised seem to have FIA approval, it is not clear to me whether they have any modern crash protection like roll cages etc, which may limit use in US. Any feedback or info welcome. You pay more, get great performance, it wont get old and should retain value.

SPF GT40, If SPF did not exist one would be paying 400K for another continuation, which means in another form one is getting a 400k car which would essentialy be unaffordable for a real bargain. Everybody who has experience with these speaks more than highly of them.
I always wanted one since I was a kid. But then my own driving experience was a slight letdown. maybe it was just the one I drove. In astheics sound etc it is just spot on for me.

Somewhere I need to try an R setup for the track. If it is how I imagined it to be in the minds eye, then this would be a car that just grabs you no questions asked. Plus as we see the performance is nothing to be embarrased of. Also a plus is Dennis, who can sort the car and knows awhat needs to be done for the track, no reinventing the wheel here, and it can be casualy raced from time to time, which is all the time I have for racing.

If I went GT40, the question becomes to R or not to R. This boils down to RHD or not, as all the other bits can be swapped back and forth. The apeal of RHD is weight on correct side for most tracks, and supposedly far better shifting. On the other hand Dennis Oltroff does grerat in a LHD car, one can get a cage without the side bars and have Ac on a car otherwise R spec which means one day it can be converted to street used(springs shocks etc). This has appeal because unless if one grows into something else for the track then what would one then do with a RHD car. Those that drive them(LHD street setup) on the street love them, and there are lots of rallies etc where such a beast might be fun. But for the next while the car would be track dedicated, so the little voice says why compromise again. The decision though on a SPF can only come with another drive in one setup more for the track.

So to conclude; a shortlist if there is one eliminates production street cars. A radical or the two track lotuses must be tried, they lack asthetics arual delight but are economical and fantastic performers. An outlier here would be an RCR.

Historics, a Chevron may be ideal, but too far for me to stretch now it is a big comitment financialy and work to keep running so its performace/experience would have to be really really compelling, but if it were then I see the point. Also on the positive it would hold its value, has sterling performance and you would probably never need something else or more.

The GT40 has nearly everything of the above going for it, but needs to be tried again

Basicaly I need to find a way to ride in or try a Chevron, GT40R, and radical. The 211 I have already tried. One of these may stand out and from that there would be little decision to make. The historics are at LRP labor day, so we shall see what pulls the heart strings.

Maybe my expectations in terms of dynamic balance and feel are already past anything historic after driving a lotus, but I tend to think a well balalnced chassis came along with the GT40 and improvements since then are more in terms of weight aerodynamics barkes and tires, which means a older car should not feel too disssimilar on the track if well sorted?

By way of analogy, my 1986 yamaha has a great motor, but I really can't live with its bendy frame and soggy dynamics, so it is an around the neighbourhood bike. I am amazed that people including me accepted such poor dynamics back in the day. My harley sportster is new, but an old style bike. Its brakes are what they are, which adds to the fun, the motor is fantastic in terms of charisma and pull and while its heavy and cornering is limited it is very stable stiff and decently balanced, so it is really fun to ride even if the performance is not ultimate. I have survived long enough to know I would probably not last too long on a modern sportbike, but think the new Norton is the ideal blend of classic motor vibes/feel, with modern enough levels of power, in a great chassis with classic looks.

From my perspective I always loved the quote given to me by an old Ducati rider, Its not just how fast you go, but also how you go fast.

As before any advice opinions are welcome and very helpful

thanks
Sean

 

sean,

don't apologize...you are one of the good members on this site in my estimation.

a few thoughts/clarifications:

* the radical can be raced in scca regional or national events in c or d sports racer depending on the prime mover you would select.

* the chevron b-16 is a very expensive car in original form and you could buy nearly 3 spf gt-40's for the price of one original b-16

* you can buy 2 spf gt-40's for the price of a b-16 continuation

* dennis' demo car is not my idea of what i wanted the spf gt-40 to be as well...i would suggest you make a call to nsxr and ask for a visit to see his mk I and II as the y are in my mind, two of the THE nicest builds yet. i have personally seen his mk I and i could not get it out of my mind for...well it is still on my mind!! if you are serious...get on a plane and visit nsxr!!

* the spf is a true period correct machine and can be easily tracked and streetable...it is amaging how accurate to the real article that it is and how it delivers a true period experience

* the gt-40 was driven by some of the very greatest drivers of all...they killed some great ones too (ken miles)

* don't be fooled into thinking the street cars you cite are turn key ready for the track...they are not!!!!!

the spf would be a car you can really enjoy owning and it will never cease to challenge you and the performance levels are wicked high...it will leave you with weak knees!!

best of luck to you!

your fellow bbi owner,

pcb

 

Peter

thanks for the thoughts.

Found a Chevron factory continuation in UK, everything on the button, they are asking 145GBP, but are negotiable so lets say 200Kusd. Its the old escalation curse, you like something for a little more there is something else and pretty soon you are double. Always nice to dream though.

I meant the street cars were mechanicaly turn key, as in you turn the key they start and will probably run for 10K-20K plus miles on the track with basic mainatnance, no science project work. Dynamicaly I agree they are not turn key, maybe a GT3 is close.

On the BBi front, its really too much car for tighter small roads, youre limited in terms of speed on the highway, its not trackable, but it is the ideal B road fast sweepers car handling and power wise, which makes it somewhat limited, but perfect on the right road/day. In other words an ultimate classic ferrai masterpiece, with practicaly no modern road relevance but like a redhead a fantastic indulgance if you can handle the temprament. I always said these were are like Can Am cars for the road, an experiment that like the countach will never be repeated, but an ultimate from a time when emotion and form ruled over rational thinking.

I put modern rubber on mine, which improves everything, turn in, ride and grip, but now the seats feel like they hold you in no better than on old ford bench seat. But on the street at the occasional Fcar run you really would need a 458 before you can outdrive an angry boxer on modern rubber.

I use my BBI mostly as the weekend grocery getter, there is a farm store about 10 miles up the recently repaved road from me. Since the Ac now also works great, its also occasionaly used as a highway Gt. I really need to find time to do the Texas 1000 which the boxer is probably ideal for. So each drive I take, I am thinking of little changes and tweaks to get it even more fully sorted for such a trip.

But then a Gt40 is probably going to blow the boxer away in every category I can think of, except maybe doing some ferrari club events/drives, and value appreciation.

 

I just wanted to post this link. It is a very recent article out of Monticello, NY.

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/23/radical-sr3-rs-a-british-barnstormer-lights-up-a-new-york-track/

I am glad you are going to drive one before you pull the trigger on anything. Given the early tones of Lotus in this thread I am sure this car is right up your alley.

Good Luck in the Quest, there is no Funner! And that can be a word for this thread too.

 

Great thread. I am in a similar dilemma and at the point where i want a more durable dedicated track car. I had tracked the following cars and now have a track ready c5 z06.

1. 996 turbo, reliable but too heavy
2. E46 m3 , too heavy ,vanos issues scared me.
3. 2011 Gt3. Its the perfect car , doesnt get any better in terms of durability power etc. But cannot put a 140 k car to risk.
4. C5z06 cams heads r comps race seats belts , 570 hp 3100 lbs

I love the z06 for the sheer power and cost of consumables , but now the issue i see when compared to the best cars like gt3 is in the handling area. Too much understeer and missing the direct steering feel of gt3 or any other german cars. All these issues can be corrected with coilovers and swaybars neg camber etc. It will cost me another 4k. But yesterday i had a pushrod break in the car, my mechanic says it can be remedied with stronger alloy pushrods. In summary , high hp vette with big cam something is going to fail when hitting 7 k rpms routinely.

Now i have been researching the Lotus exige s. But i am not sure if it will feel lot more underpowered compared to the cars i owned before.

I see sr3 radical being reommended, how many people really use them for DE? I woud be concerned for safety when running with bigger cars.

 

You are more than welcome to come anytime and drive one of my GT40s...just let me know. Although the chassis are the same, they drive very differently...setup slightly different from one another.
Last picture is me literally handing the wheel over to Derek Bell...now that was an experience. Absolutely no traffic at 7am in the Arkansas hills...he drove like he was at Spa again!

Thanks

Brian
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