+1 Compared to the value of a 458 I think you can consider it good value...but my opinion of the 458 does affect it personally. The F12, or any current Ferrari, doesn't hold a candle to the damnright insane quality a Pagani or Bugatti has to offer. But that's why they're also in completely different price ranges .
I was asking more about the comparison to the GTR. It's barely faster than the compromised Enzo around the ring, I would think the f12 would destroy it. The Huayra I know little about, but all I've seen states 720hp and 3000lbs (dry) while the f12 is 740hp and 3363lbs (curb, so wet with 1/2 tank I believe), so not more power....But a slightly better weight/power ratio if the Huayra comes in at 3150lbs wet. In either case, they're close enough in numbers to where you'd have to put them on the track to find out - and the Pagani better damn well be faster as it is 3x the cost. I don't know why you think the Pagani is ring bred while the f12 isn't? The 599xx went around the ring, and pretty fast, and the f12 gets a lot of it's engineering from that car. If it's just because Ferrari doesn't go there to do the lions share of it's development, well they do have their own track with a couple of current and ex f1 drivers right outside their factory, so it'd be a bit stupid of them to ignore that and truck everything to Germany, wouldn't it? It's not that many don't care about ring times, many just think it's not the sole measure of a car. If two cars are within a few seconds of each other at the ring, to me that's not a difference unless they were the same driver on the same tires on the same day. What did P 4/5 (not C) run at the ring?
Hey HP's non road legal Zonda did a 6:47 and Pirelli uses Pagani to develop their tires at the Ring so they spend a lot of time there way more than Ferrari does. The 599XX is a lot different than a road legal F12. Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina has never been to the Ring so I don't really know what it would run there but it would be a lot faster than an Enzo. (Much more tire, much less weight and front overhang I'd guess 7:15) I agree that a second or two means little but 5 or more means something IMO. Weight at the Ring really effects brakes as does downforce. Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina has twice the downforce of an Enzo and P 4/5 C has 1000 more pounds of downforce than her sister. P 4/5 C pulls 2.8G's in turns at the Ring. It's hard to get below 7 minutes without MASSIVE grip. The GTR is pretty impressive being 5 seconds faster than an Enzo. Personally I don't see an F12 being faster there than a GTR and I see a Huyara being faster still. The F12 will have a Ring Time as will the Huyara and the bench racing will stop for a while. If any of you are around on September 29 at the Ring please say hello.
Is there anyone ... anywhere ... who is realistically cross shopping an F12 (or 458 or 599) with a GTR? Seriously, the GTR offers ridiculous performance for it's price and is a very good car, but the comparison is pointless. The original post asked if the F12 could be considered a "bargain" when compared to some of the hypercars. So, yeah, the GTR offers similar, if not better, performance in certain areas than the F12, for a significantly lower price ... but would anyone consciously choose it over an F12? Or an Aventador? I can buy a Nokia cell phone for a fraction of the price of an iPhone, but does that make it a bargain if it can't do all of the things an iPhone can do? No ... and please don't tell me that a GTR can do all of the things an F12 can do, because there are countless intangibles that for me don't even compare. Just my opinion, of course. Silly argument. The price is actually lower than I'd thought it would be and, frankly, is quite reasonable all things considered.
I would say that any modern ferrari is pretty much the polar opposite of a bargain. Lighting your money on fire would be as much of a bargain as buying a new F12. Sounds like a pretty decent car though.
I agree with you, CT Audi Fan. According to dictionary.com a bargain is defined as There are other definitions but this is the most appropriate one. So, if you are fortunate enough to be able to acquire an F12, and if you love cars and driving, I'd say its certainly advantageous purchase. It helps with your mental health and its more fun than therapy! The second part of that is what is the usual cost. Is it the usual cost per HP or usual cost per emotional satisfaction one receives while at the helm of such a vehicle, or whilst looking at it, or while detailing it etc? The use of the word advantageous is really a subjective notion, therefore its possible to argue both sides. I choose to think of the F12 as a compelling proposition.
F12 a bargain? Perhaps in 6-8 years and its replacement is on the horizon. A beautiful (to my eyes), powerful, front-engine V12, 2-seat Ferrari........my dream car. But only a "bargain" after someone else has ridden a good chunk of the depreciation.
Indeed...a 458 would fit this part of the world much better as a DD in terms of size. In the US, I can imagine that the Aventador's size would not be so much of an issue. On a side note: how is your 8C treating you?
Very well. Over 10K miles with no issues at all. I still Love the way it looks and drives. Only fair in the snow. Hope all is well with you and Yours! Best
As the 458 GTC didn't have verifiable telemetry set up on the NS in 2011 we'll never know what it ran there. YOY the full course can be different while generally the NS stays the same although due to construction it varies as well. If any 458GTC's show up in September, which they won't we'll be happy to accommodate them.
I think for a large part of the world calling a £250k Ferrari a bargain might just cause instant outrage. I get the point, and in many ways the price increase over a 599 is relatively small. However, where does the price inflation stop ? When people stop buying I guess. Much of Europe has stopped buying, Italy totally. Ferrari seems destined to another price planet now. Of course there are many in the world who do not need to worry about the cost of such cars, but equally there are many people with significant means who will probably start questioning and asking why. At this price point you start entering some nice classic car markets. If I have learnt anything from working with wealthy people, it is that throwing capital away is not a good idea no matter how many millions you have. I am lucky to have had a 458 coupe, now have a 458 Spider. But when I drive my 2008 599 I notice big differences. You might think I am going to say the 458 has an amazing gearbox, how fast it is and great to drive, well yes it is true. But open the door on a 599 and the smell of the leather alone makes you realise the the 458 is made from something else. It smells, well a little plasticky (maybe the carbon no idea),are prices going up and material quality being chosen more carefully ?. I then think, well one is worth £100k the other £235k , then I drive them and I can tell you the 458 is not twice the car. Equally, I compare the 458 to a 430 Spider I had. Is it worth what 3 times as much. No. The 430 is a perfectly good car, roof down more of a true spider (458 is more targa in my view) , you still have a wonderful V8 sound and you get almost all of the required Ferrari magic for a fraction of the cost. Where I am heading, is that a F12 is not a bargain, a Ferrari bargain lies in the 360/430/550/575 and 599. Now relatively affordable, with strong reliability and all of the Ferrari characteristics that make (made) them so special. One F12 equates to a 575, 360 CS and a 430 Spider. 3 for 1. Of course, for a big audience, newest is better (and objectively of course they are) the newer cars easier to use day to day, and more accessible performance and would never consider this type of perspective. I am still torn on the new and older cars, but in terms of what makes me smile and enjoy the thrill of driving, I know I do not need a 458 or an F12, even if I admire the performance and dynamic brilliance of the newer cars. But bargain , the F12, IMHO it is not.
not for me because I am lovely. but I know people who basically only buy flashy cars to impress others and the girls seem to go nuts for the Aventadors, they just scream supercar and wealth!
Pleased to see that one of the cars Autocar benchmark the F12 against is the Aston One 77 and this is my point about the F12 looking good value relative to the performance it offers. Simply put, it seems you have to pay around $1.5m to get the same performance elsewhere.
??? How about a Dodge Viper ACR which costs under 150K and is faster? A GTR? The 77 fit, finish, and rarity is in a totally different league than a F12 as are The Huyara and the Veyron which is why people pay a lot more for those.
I agree. A 6 year old Toyota Camry is value. A Ferrari is not. I have been wrestling with trading my 08 599 for a 458. It is sort of like setting fire to your money.
It is. The bargain is buying a depreciated Ferrari and driving it for many happy miles. As an aside all in EVERYTHING my 88 TR cost me $2.50 per mile for 155K miles over 14 years. Think about those who bought 599's way over msrp. drove them 3K miles and sold them for 200K less than they paid. $66.666666 per mile...
I bought that 599. I got my 08 with 2k miles on it for 225K a year ago. It was 2 years old. I don't know what the original owner paid but it stickered for 337K.
