Procoaches...can you fix the reasonable man?

well said...and very complete.

 

This is what makes sense to me. Concrete goals other Zen dribble. "Inner Tennis" I get that but "training method" moved me along much farther and faster in of my other sports.

It "seems" to me that to combat driver #2 thinking and "comfortably move the car around" means low horsepower like starting out in a miata. If the mistake is made where you own a high horsepower thrill machine is there a path to driver #3? How do you get comfortable?

 

okay now *that* is interesting. I hadn't picked up that book in a few years and was thumbing through it the other day. to me that book boils down to the difference between guilt and shame; guilt being "I did something wrong" and shame being "I am something wrong".

in this context that makes perfect sense, the difference between driver #2 and driver #3 being driver #2 operates out of sense of himself being wrong (bad driver, no confidence, no balls, etc) and driver #3 knowing his limits and the car's limits, and being able to exploit them without self-condemnation.

 

Ha! Well done, Rob!

Coming to Mosport this weekend or are you still in Europe?

 

Precisely. I just ended my lengthiest gap between races and it's like riding a bicycle.

 

Precisely what I was alluding to earlier, but I find that most people can't relate to my experience.

 

Nice to see you took it all in good fun. I am back from Spa and look forward to seeing you kill it at Mosport this weekend. I'll be there tomorrow and will hunt you down to say hello.

 

Carl, I think moving "down" to a Miata (SpecMiata) is a great way for driver type 2 to become driver type 3. It forces the driver to carry more corner entry speed and apex speed. What follows below is a good story, albeit one that takes place on 2 wheels instead of 4, but bear with me as it addresses some of your questions about age, responsibility, risk, enjoyment, etc.

2 decades ago, I was spending every spare dollar and vacation day running in SSGT and ITGT in both the Norcal and Southern Pacific divisions. I got to a point where I wasn't going to be able to make the financial jump into a more exciting car, so in a bout of boredom, I moved back to motorcycles. Fast forward to about a decade ago, I had hit a plateau with my motorcycle lap times. I had always ridden 4 strokes, starting with 600s and moving up to 1000cc bikes. I made a decision to move "backwards" to a 250cc 2-stroke GP spec bike and asked Doug Polen to help me with some 1-on-1 coaching.

We started riding some 20 minute sessions at Laguna and I remember what Doug told me before we hit the track for the first coaching session: "The bike does not know whether it's me or you riding it. The traction limit is the same for both of us. If I can make it through the corner, you can too. So try and keep up."

I remember braking deeper into turn 2 than I ever had before, so late and hard on the brakes that I felt the back wheel lift off the ground. Then as I turned in I swore I was going to lose the front end, but I did not want him to get away from me, so I eased off the front brake, planted my knee down, and started to roll on the throttle harder than I normally would to get back up on the powerband.

I rode like that for 2 sessions following his back tire, at first feeling completely over my head on every fast corner or hard braking zone, but gradually getting more comfortable with carrying more corner entry and apex speed.

Towards the end of the day it started raining and guys were slowing down, putting their hand up, and pulling into the pits before the end of the session. I looked up ahead at Doug and he was waving his hand at me to say, "No, keep riding and keep up with me." Inside my helmet I thought, "This is f**king nuts, I am going to hurt myself big time." But Doug's coaching time was expensive (he was charging $150 per 20-minute session + an offtrack download back then) and I continued to follow him as the pavement got more wet.

We did about 2 or 3 more laps in the rain at what I thought were ridiculous speeds and by that point, no one else was riding. Everyone had gone back to the pits except the 2 of us.

Finally, it happened. I crashed. He had been getting a little further ahead of me purposely and turning around to pat the back tail section of his bike (Ducati 999R) to tell me to close up the gap. I tried to carry more speed into a wet turn 3 than the traction limits would allow, and I felt the back end come loose first after I already had the knee down going towards the apex. It was a relatively mild lowside, but it was bad enough to end my day with some broken parts on the right side of the bike.

We talked about the crash in the download session, about how the wet conditions had created a knife edge between tire grip and tire slip, and he said, "Now you've become more comfortable with being uncomfortable [with cornering speed] and sometimes you are going to crash as you find that new limit. Don't be afraid. If you crash, replay every moment in your head and figure out what you did wrong, then get back on the bike as soon as possible and ride that corner again and again until you have it nailed down."

That's was the moment that I made the move from being a "rider type 2" to a "rider type 3." I did two more coaching days with him later that year, and by the end of my lessons from Doug Polen, I had picked up 10 seconds per lap at Laguna, fast enough to make it inside of the AMA 10% qualifying rule if they had continued to run the 250GP class. For an amateur level racer/rider like me, that was a big step forward. Those days are all behind me now. Aging has a more dramatic impact on the body's performance limits when you are on a motorcycle, but my brain is rewired forever.

 

Good story bro.

 

You were there at the start Jay! Rich Jonec and I running those RX-7s and you were still running the A-Sedan Camaro. In between races, we were storing our cars at Kent Stacy's shop and even at the Oakland Airport economy parking lot. 1992-93, good times. I still remember the year we saw you at the SCCA Runoffs at Mid-Ohio. You were robbed! That should have been your Championship!

Take care!

-Greg

 

Alex Lloyd's follow up piece:

http://jalopnik.com/5930557/why-you-must-ignore-the-nerds-if-you-want-to-drive-fast?utm_campaign=socialflow_jalopnik_twitter&utm_source=jalopnik_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

 

Even will all the data acq in the world, there's only so much one's brain can process. I agree. While a basic understanding of physics, handling dynamics, grip (aero and mechanical), etc. are important, over-analyzing driving is just as much of a red-herring to going fast is as golf-aids (or shooting-aids) are. You either know it or you don't. The physics can prove out what's possible, but it's going to be up to the guy in the seat to get there somehow.

I always adhere to the belief that doing more of something will make you better at it. That's not absolute, and there are diminishing returns, BUT a good coach can point out flaws or sub-optimal performance. That may, along with TONS more track time, get someone over the hump. I like the idea of stepping down to a lower-powered car, though, and I found that driving Sports2000 was very helpful in smoothing my inputs out and carrying more speed.

In the immortal words of Brian Redman, "Less brake, more gas."

CW

 

GREAT post!

At Mont Tremblant this past weekend, I had three clients in 2-liter FIA sports racers chop seconds off their times and all end up on the podium. In the drivers lounge during our briefings, an experienced driver who was crewing for two of them called me a "human interface device" between the data and the drivers!

The reason why was because the person who made the observation said that he'd never seen anyone "bring data to life" in the way that working with each of these drivers did, allowing them to transcend their own self-set limits and expectations.

Instead of finding fault and pointing out shortcomings evident in the video and data, I just made a point of suggesting cogent strategies for improvement, identifying and zeroing in on just two or three objectives per session. All three were impatient, wanting more substantive results sooner in the weekend, but by the races, all three shattered their previous bests and ended up on the podium! It's really fun when it works, which is most of the time.

Beats the hell out of a Spec Miata!

 

If you're serious about wanting to prove or improve your driving skills go buy a Formula Vee and race SCCA for a year or two.

Not only will it improve your driving if will also put your ego firmly in place.

 

I have learned this with spec miata for sure. Amazing what you can learn with a slow car when you are trying to drive it fast.

 

I get everything posted as conventional wisdom. Is that all that there is in this sport? I don't think so. Racing is a sport. But the original question remains...
<<In martial arts before Bruce Lee, students sweep the dojo, listen but not understand musings of the sensei, and spent years sometimes a lifetime learning what we consider rudimentary in martial arts today. BruceLee was not responsible for a particular martial art but cracking the code on radically changing the "teaching method" that "quickly" makes the great fighters we have today. Does something like this exist for racing? What componants take you from driver #2 to driver #3?>>

Swimmers swim faster than ever, runners run faster than ever, 50 y/o's complete ironmen triathelons daily, today's martial artist can really be a fighter. All of this is not because humans have evolved but because training method has evolved. There has to be a faster way than ticking away time mastering increasingly faster machines. Before there was proper "seat time" in martial arts people would train the same mistakes everyday. The seat time was meaningless. A paradigm shift in teaching method radically changed all of martial arts regardless of disipline with in a few years. That is what I'm getting at. I'm too impatient to drive a miata. Life really is too short to race slow cars.

 

I think you have a flawed (or myopic) view of those other sports.

 

A lot of people have the ability to learn just about anything. Especially when the financial resources are available but I think to be absolutely excellent at certain professions you have to be born to do so. When someone has the natural talent they grow fairly rapidly especially with the aid of someone like Peter. Everything makes sense, things just click. You just know when it feels right and you certainly know when it doesn't.
As someone mentioned previously. This is not for everyone but some don't realize that they are pursuing the wrong hobby/career. No matter how much can be learned and improved, the instinct is just not there.

 

Fatbillybob

There is nothing more rewarding than beating up on high dollar/horsepower cars in a nothing car when you know how to use it. HP just masks your mistakes and keeps you from improving
"the most important variable in the racing equation"
By Peter Krause

 

Why is driving any different than golf? Look at all the time and money many have spent on golf lessons without a hope of ever getting anywhere near professional levels.

As for spending time in a slow car, believe me it doesn't seem slow when you're going as fast as you and the car are capable of.

 

You might be right. I am only professional level in mixed martial arts. I only see the trends I mentioned in other arts. In martial arts I attribute my ability to training method not innate skill or physical attritbutes so that is my frame of reference. I would think there is a faster way to become a #3 driver than tip toe to the top driving progessively faster cars to hone skill. I think a #3 driver is relative to the car. If we all drove golf carts we could get to #3 pretty fast. I also don't believe the nonsence about miata being momentim cars. All cars are momentum cars. When you race higher Hp cars you are not the only one with high HP. If you don't know how to keep the momentum you are still going to loose.

 

There are many drivers with virtually endless resources and remain unable to drive themselves out of the proverbial paper bag.

 

Yes, we see the same issue in martial arts. But I guarantee you can take that same person and with best methods elevate that person to limits beyond what would have been possible 40 years ago with "then" conventional means. Maybe the comparison is apples to oranges and that's fine. Machines are pretty capable today. There is a big difference between being a #3 driver in a miata and being a #3 driver is a winged thing that does not work in turns until you have the guts and skill to go fast enough to make the aero work as an example.

 

I see your angle but in a momentum car you can not make mistakes or you will lose for sure. In a high hp car you are less inclined to look for improvements during cornering/ braking because all you have to do mash your foot to the floor after making your mistakes and you "think" you are fast.
Imagine driving in the rain in any given car. The great equalizer. Everytime I had to race against cars that were "slightly" illegal and I knew it would be a struggle I always prayed for rain because the extra hp wasn't as valuable as the skill under those conditions.
Once you have mastered extracting whatever it is a car has to offer, it doesn't matter if it is a 458 or an Excursion because you can feel what the car is telling you.

 

EuropeanRoadandracing:

I drive an FV and you're 100% correct!


Mark