whats easiest?

is it easier to progress thru track day levels if you drive a low hp car that handles well? i feel that driving a low hp car is much easier. you dont have to worry about heavy braking to slow for turns. you can floor it rather than have to feather a powerful one. your speeds are slower in general so easier to be consistent. etc

obviously, it difficult to win races with a low hp car as you have to keep up the momentum but im only talking about track days.

 

I've gotten to the point where I like racing low-hp cars, and taking high-hp cars to track days!

 

I agree 100%

 

Ditto, racing low HP is easier on the wallet too (less wear and tear)

 

Low HP will teach better driving in my opinion, you can learn more without costly mistakes, as mentioned upkeep is typically less (more seat time), and so on. Momentum cars teach smooth driving and you don't have power to get you out of a mistake so consistency is key. It will all help down the road should the driver move into faster machinery. It's also a blast!

 

Agree as to low HP cars better for learning, although, the process is endless (at least, for me), regardless of what I am driving.

I have driven my Mini, street tires, etc. at PCA events, and while I can't keep up with Porsches on straights, I do have some fun in the corners, and really hope for a wet track.

Another alternative is to practice racing go karts, nothing better for learning the importance of momentum.

 

I had a situation where I started racing one of the most underpowered Production cars of all time, a Fiat 850 Spider. Sweet handling, of course anything is sweet that is going that gently, but bit by bit got going pretty well in it comparatively. I won the BMW Cup at Lime Rock Labor Day in 1991, stuck it on the pole a couple times over Lotus 7-BMC's and dozens of Alfa Giulietta Spider Veloces. Won the HSR Rolex Vintage Enduro class championship in 1993.

When a customer of my preparation facility flew me down to Charlotte to pick up his brand new (?!?!) E36 M3 LTW BMW, I put safety gear, seats, harnesses, cat back exhaust and brake pads on it, as well as R-compound tires and a week later was running at Roebling Road, a very fast 2-mile race course near Savannah, Georgia.

On the pit lane, there was speculation that while it was demonstrated that I could drive a slow car quickly, there was some doubt that that skill could translate when driving what was, at that time, one of the quickest street cars around. The second lap, one of the organizers turned to another and said, "guess it works in a faster car, too."

 

Great story, hope the miata will do the same for me!

 

i knew this thread would turn into racing low power cars but can we get back to advancing thru track day levels...

i drive in the advanced group but would like to become an instructor. i track a gtr with all season tires. the person evaluating me has a 130 hp car with full race suspension and slicks. yes he was very consistent and drove a near perfect line compared to me. however i feel most of this is due to how easy his car is to drive vs mine.

 

Why do you want to become an instructor as opposed to improving your skills in the advanced group?

I think becoming an instructor is less about driving the car and more about explaining to others how best to improve their technique driving their car.

No question that your GT-R on all-seasons is a handful. Of course, speak to Sharif and get an idea of which and what R-compounds are best for you and your car.

One problem with evaluators and instructors driving a low-powered car is that they simply aren't familiar with the challenges of a high horsepower car, including proper braking technique, managing the additional weight and speed through transitions, et cetera.

You need to find a higher hp driver (Z-06, 997 Porsche, GT-R) to evaluate you.

 

I want to instruct rather just improve my own driving. Its something i enjoy doing and know i would be good at.

Is there any reading or viewing materal about track day instructing?

 

Yes a low HP car is easier to learn on. Less room for error, shorter braking distances and more shifting(more practice time heal toeing if you have a manual and not a flappy padel).

I drove a Subaru STi and was pretty good with it, I now drive a car with half the horsepower(Lotus Elise) on the track and am usually watching Porsche Turbo's and Carrera S models as well as many new Z28 cameros mustangs etc, getting blue flags to let me by in the straight because I am on them so fast in the corners. 190HP is plenty for the car, but I do wish it had more.

 

Start with a momentum car....all race cars are momentum cars, really.

I have been racing pretty steadily for 12 years now, from club level to some professional stuff and do as many track days for fun as I can.

Looking back, the BEST things I accidentally did was to start and stick with cars like a Spec Miata and some of the Skip Barber hardware.....

I run some higher horsepower iron now, but I jump in a Miata every now and then to see if I've gotten better, or just lazy. Horsepower hides a lot of sins. I also find that a variety of cars keeps you sharp (eg. Miata vs. Lotus vs. Porsche). (Curious as to Peter Krause's PoV on that)

Other smart thing I did was get very good coaching and instruction. For what i do, I am happy being "the guy with the consistently perfect line, but who can still brake later and get full throttle sooner"....those things I'm still working on.

 

I've been racing since 1997. Started in low hp SRF (100hp), moved to open wheel Formula Mazda (150hp) and now racing ultra fast Formula Atlantic. My time in low hp was invaluable. In fact I picked up a Spec Miata to race for fun and to keep me honest although they require completely different styles to go fast. But the FM is cheap fun by comparison. Plus extra seat time is never a bad thing.

 

Good post. Good plan!

Once you reach a certain level, switching up cars is just gaining more and varied experience.

 

This is a good solution....I like it.

I raced SRF's and Miata's and if I did do track days I would take a high HP car to track days if I had one, but even low hp cars could be fun on a track day as long as it wasn't too low hp

 

One of the best things people can start with is a low HP car. Speeds are lower, with more of an emphasis on technique.... not just brute power and hold on for dear life on the straights, followed by tip toe through the corners.

I got started in a Fiat X/19, which was probably a great choice, as it was all about momentum, and technique. Any upgrades I made were to the brakes and chassis. I got to the point that I could be flat almost the entire way around Lyme Rock...... and do times that a decently driven Boxer could do. There is nothing quite as rewarding as using your skills in a low hp car, to beat up the 'big boys'.

Then came autocrosses, SCCA, IMSA, etc.

I like the instructing end, because if you can effectively teach something, you generally have to have a better than average grasp of the material. Whenever I instruct, I usually end up sharpening my own game at the same time.

 

OMG another dude who thinks driver skill has anything to do with power of the vehicle he drives. If all you want to do is go sort of fast and enjoy the machinery, then it does not matter what you drive. Pick something fun, that appeals to your inner child and play. I DE the stuff I really can't afford to race since you always leave a little something on the table in DE and go sort of fast. When you race you have to be able to wad it up and walk away.

If "advancing" through DE is trying to be as fast, smooth and consistent, and I mean fast enough to race that car competitively with other skilled racers, then you should pick a vehicle that is prepped to a level comparable to a race car class of your choice and when you can run lap after lap with less than 0.5 sec per mile difference in lap times (excluding traffic) and those lap times are within 1 sec of the pole at a SCCA National race or comparable, then you are qualified to,teach. Whether you can articulate what got you there is another skill set.

It is very, very demanding on equipment to run at qualifying pace lap after lap and if you think it is easier to do that well in a momentum car than in a high power car you are mostly wrong. Now I'll admit it is easier to get through a place like the Kink at RA in a momentum car than in a Cup Car at full pace, I think you will find most drivers trained in momentum cars can jump into a horsepower car and go fast than vice versa, as horsepower makes it easier to think you are fast when in fact you leave all kinds of mid corner speed on the table.

Now for me the big challenge is driving a downforce car and recalibrating to believe and trust the equipment to grip in the fast stuff. That is a true art that I may be too old and mortal to ever do really well.

But a GTR vs Spec Miata? I'll take the latter all day long. I'll melt the brakes and tires on the former far too soon.

I'll also say you come across awfully cocky and I don't think you really understand or appreciate what makes a driver quick, safe and consistent in light of your description of the person evaluating you.

I want to say you have in other posts talked about how you go to DEs maybe 6 times a year and that also does not to me indicate sufficient experience.

How about you post for us your times on various tracks and the pole times at SCCA National races in SM, SRF, NASA ST2 for some baselines?

 

gee Mr. Verges, thanks so much for your offer

i will put my resume together asap for you to review

and you say i come off as cocky. whew

 

Sarcasm is not very nice.

And it's Mr. Cocky.

Don't make me publish (again) the Pyramid of Speed

 

my reason for this post is to get advice on becoming a de instructor. the groups i track with use driving ability to promote you to instructor and im stuck at the level below. my car is difficult for me to drive so my thought is to rent a spec miata the next time i get evaluated. it just seems like that kind of car would be much easier to drive well. im not interested in lap times or racing or anything of the sort.

 

I do recommend you rent a SM or similar to see what you think. I am still not sure I understand "easier" to drive for evaluation purposes. In a DE envinronment I am more interested in good situational awareness, safety, car control and driving the line than pace and all of these can be done easily in any car. It gets difficult when you are at the limits of grip and trying to carry real pace and that's difficult in any car as you approach the limit of what that car can do on that track and that day. But this only matters if you care about lap times and if you don't really care about lap times then you can go 9/10s and carve beautiful lines and have pretty good lap times. Frankly this should be easier in a GTR as you have a panoply of driver aids and ABS. If you are missing apexes or dropping wheels on exit or otherwise struggling with consistency, I'd suggest ratcheting it back a tad, getting consistent and then building a bit more pace. To keep from getting overwhelmed, maybe focus on only part of the turns as you build pace, go deeper and so on.

I'll tell you that my earlier comment about not appreciating the SM driver refers to it LOOKING easy. Rent one and follow him and see if it is easy. The best drivers make it look easy, especially in a momentum car, because they stay on the limit with minute, smooth and consistent inputs.

Seat time has also always been key for me. I have the incredible good fortune to probably spend an average of 5 hours or more per month at speed in some kind of car, and that really helps.

Mr. Cocky

PS pls take criticism as intended to help.

 

what i find difficult in the gtr is that things happen so quickly. i have no time to think between turns and that makes it harder for me to be consistent. maybe with things happening much slower in the miata, my slow reflexes might have a better chance of keeping up

reality is, clubs should not base instructing on driving ability. most successful sport coaches were not so great as players and vice versa.

 

I think your latter point has a lot of validity, but all good coaches do have a lot of personal skill, experience and the ability to evaluate and refine talent greater than their own. Do you think you have that much experience and understanding? Can you either do what a fine driver does or articulate what you can't do in a way that your more talented student can use to surpass you?

My critical remarks were directed at your perception that the car is much of an issue in driving. I disagree and believe that any car can be driven very well and in fact a good coach should be able to adjust technique and teaching for the vehicle at hand.

We at Apex promote from our advanced student ranks, but we rarely do so upon request. Rather, we invite the person who gets there more naturally, so my advice is keep getting seat time and the chance to instruct will flow naturually.

I know, easy for Mr. Cocky to say.