You guys scare me I am goign back to my mini bike
To the Pro Techs who have posted here thanks for contributing. I'm one of the few diy guys who have never needed a real Ferrari mechanic in 30 years of multiple Ferrari ownership yet, "thank you" for sharing and being here. Despite my skills I never bash a pro. Like you I run a business and understand what it takes and what compromises we each make to run our respective business successfully every day. Some of the posters show their ignorance of not only mechanics but also of business masquerading as dispresect. Take it for what it is ignorance. There are thousands here who appreciate your contributions.
... But there are limits in latitude ... If production numbers and parts quality and complexity are about equal then why so much more common sense when servicing a pcar and so much piling on on the fcars ... It's collectively our fault for tolerating it ... The business guys should push toward what the market will yield ... That's a best practice across most sectors ... We are the dumb dumbs that approve the work ... Pay the tab ... Then tell each other why it all makes sense ...
That's a load of crap. You want me to pay for 40 hours, there better be a reason. An appropriate response is: It takes 4 hours to take the engine out if you don't x and it takes 4 hours to time the cams if you don't y. There is also an extra 2 hours in checking the cams for twist, an hour to check crank end play or some other real stuff that adds to the mechanical quality of the job. Another appropriate response is: There is a lot more that goes into it but I don't have the time or inclination to get into it here for somebody that is not a potential customer. I'd fully understand that. Instead the response I get is "how dare you question me, child, you have no clue." Followed by condescendingly telling me I have low standards because I don't blindly trust that it takes 40 hours to do a 20 hour job. Get a measuring stick and measure the string, it's not an open ended question. If my tire was not out of balance before taking it in, it shouldn't be out of balance when picking it up unless they mess something up, so yes I'd be very pissed if I had a tire out of balance when picking the car up, and no that doesn't mean the tires should be balanced for me because they shouldn't need it. By that insane logic, the car should be repainted, all light bulbs replaced and the interior re-dyed because the owner would be pissed if there was a scratch on the car, interior wear or a bulb out. Lets just skip the part where we determine if it's actually needed. If I take my BMW in and ask how long and how much to change the timing chain tensioners and guides, the answer is simple and readily provided. None of this 'it depends.' I guess that flies with people that have money to burn and don't want to worry themselves with what goes on behind the curtain, but I've been taking apart and putting things together since I was three so there's no way I'll put that kind of blind faith in someone working on my car unless they've already earned it. If you don't have the time to explain to me exactly what goes on in those 40 hours, you don't work on my car as I don't trust you. Is that low standards or high? Prove me wrong, tell me what goes into that 40 hours so I know and we all know and these questions don't continually pop up. Otherwise, in 2015 I will find out for myself. I look forward to it even if it takes me 80 hours.
Like FBB I appreciate the pros that contribute on here, really do, but I can see why people like Bob want to know what goes into the service. If you don't have it, the workshop manual for a 348 or 355 can be downloaded from here. http://www.ferraridatabase.org/The_Downloads/Downloads.htm For the 348 surely the service includes every item on the 40k service on pages N6-N10 of the 348 workshop manual, seems like quite a lot of stuff over and above a belt change. Also seems like a lot of stuff is checked when the engine is out which can't be a bad thing. I asked earlier but got no joy - do any of the pros (or anyone else) know what the 'book time' is for an engine out cam belt change? I ask because that's what I'm quoted by my garage. In the full Ferrari workshop schedules it specifies expected time for any job. That said they can be a tad optimistic, I'll give an example. The book time, as specified by Ferrari for a 348 dash to be fully taken out of the car and then fully reinstalled, including everything that entails is 5 hours. The guy who is currently retrimming my 348 said it took him way longer than that (and charged accordingly, don't blame him for that). Anyway, Ferrari specify a time for every job on the car, what's the time allocation for an engine out cam belt change that includes everything in the schedule? I'm no mechanic (does it show? ) but I'd think the 'big boys' can service a car quicker than a small shop. When I went in to watch my car being worked on there was a mechanic doing most of the work but he was assisted on several jobs which must have speeded things up. I guess what you loose is a bit of the personal touch that guys like Tim can undoubtedly offer.
I can't speak for a Ferrari tech, but, I was a Honda motorcycle tech for many years. They also had a flat rate book that had times listed for every job. We were paid by flat rate time. If a job was rated at 3 hours and it took me 6, I got paid for 3 hours. Most of the jobs were fairly close to actual times but some were a bit unrealistic. This was especially true for large jobs that required engine removal. For these jobs, I always negotiated an add-on time for them if they wanted me to do the work (which they did because I was very good ). On small jobs, I could usually beat the clock and make some extra money. So I would expect that the time in the Ferrari book for an engine out service on a 348 would probably be less than actual time for a good tech. The time rate book is not exact but it is a good tool for estimations if in the hands of an experienced service manager.
Thanks Todd, that is exactly what I am talking about. With the fixed rates we get over in the UK they are generally using the book time to determin the cost. Before we were charged by the hour. Maybe the downside is it encourages mechanics to rush, I don't know, but the guys at the dealer I go to are paid by the hour, I pay the garage by the job. I realise that can leave a discrepency but that's how it goes. At my last service I got them to fix my electric windows, there was power to both but operating very slowly. They said it would probably only take an hour to sort so that's what I paid. Turned out it took them more like 3 but it was quoted work so they honoured it. I got stung at a previous garage, got an estimate then when the work was done the bill was just shy of £2k more than the estimate had been. That's why I do it all by quoted price now.
But book time is charged by the hour? If it's "x" pounds to do a quoted job, then you have your price. Dealers quote book times and are rigid on this, specialists tend to either charge slightly less, or you get a lot more done for your hour. It was always that way in uk, at least at the two big f-dealers I worked for. Interestingly, the dealers have indeed dropped their prices massively to bring them back from the indies. A lot of the "old" mechanics have long left the dealers, bonus schemes, being able to earn a lot more from pretty much any other brand, or just wanting their own shops has meant there isn't as much knowledge of cars older than 430 left in the main dealers in the uk.
You're not wrong in what you say which is why I asked what the book time is for an engine out cam belt major service as maybe that gives some reason for the pretty big difference in the price we pay over here. You're also spot on with a fair few of the older mechanics opening up their own shops or gone to other garages here, but the guy who worked on mine seemed to know a fair amount about the 348 and had worked on all sorts from the classic Ferraris to the new ones. That said, he could have just been blagging it I guess. So anyway, as you're on, what is the book time for said service and is it just wholey unrealistic? Is that the reason for the difference in price? If you worked in the UK you must be familiar with DK Engineering, probably work on more 288GTOs, F40s, F50s etc than anywhere else here and maybe even in Europe. They undercut the main dealers and I'd wage quite a bit that they don't cut corners. Maybe it's taxes, maybe it's something else. My thought is that it's probably market forces. Pretty much any indie or main dealer here will pick your car up and return it in a covered transport charged at about £1 per mile. England is about the size of one of your states so 'in-state' I can choose from maybe (and this is just a guess) 25 indies or 6-main dealers, all of who are in competition. I'd guess that's a big reason for the difference in price. Don't get me wrong at all, I'm a supporter of a free market, if owners don't want to pay, they don't have to. But guys should be allowed to question the costs, shouldn't they? As long as it's in a polite manner.
348-31,250 miles=36.8hrs. Yes, I have heard Of DK. Well respected garage, I worked not far from them at HR Owens a good few years ago! The owner of DK is a real petrol head and thoroughly nice chap.
I don't know what the official hours rate is for a major, but it sure took longer than I expected just to get the damned engine re-installed. Getting all the bolt holes lined up took forever. Then you're trying to connect and tighten those short water hoses..... yeah, they came apart easy when dropping the engine, but not so easy going the other way. Feeding the plugs to the computers through the bulkhead is a PIA... big plugs - small holes. Then there's the bleeding of brakes and clutch lines, burping cooling systems. Hell, just fitting all the screws to the various fender liner panels takes a while. I don't know if the pros have special techniques for all that, but it was more time then I expected!
He is indeed, runs the business with his two sons now. Ok, so there's the figure - 36.8 hours, so that's about what I'd expect to be paying over this way. Works out at seriously cheap labour of around £40 per hour. I'm guessing they generally charge more than that so either they're doing it in less time than that (tricky I'd think given the things that are done and the fact you guys say it can't be - and you should know) or they're discounting general service prices because they need the trade and have to get it somehow. I'm guessing (and hoping) its the latter. What I don't buy is that every garage in the UK cuts corners and does substandard work. Am I alowed to ask what an engine out cam belt (and the rest!) service would cost there? I walk into your place, say I've got a 348 that needs one and we asume no unforseen issues. What's your price, ball park obviously? If you don't want to answer, that's fine, I'm not a customer, but given the book time is a bit more than some might think, it's in your court to say why, if you want to, clearly.
I have the bill for the major done on my 355 when I bought it 8 years ago - work carried out by Pozzi, the Ferrari concessionnaire in France. As we all know a "proper" major includes valve timing...............I also had the clutch changed as a precaution. The time by the book for this work was 44.5 hours. Four and a half years later I did the major myself. I am a "good amateur" with good equipment and tools; no more, no less. To do the job "by the book" using the tailor made equipment and tools I for one can easily see how two trained mechanics would need 20 hours together to complete the work. The hourly rate charged is another matter.
July 2004 it was 44.5 hours at 58 euros/hour = 2581 euros + 2600 euros parts (including 1100 for a complete clutch and release bearing) So, let's say 5200 euros + VAT at 19.6% = 6226 euros TOTAL for the job. To give you the rough figures in pounds sterling, just cut all those by 20% You will see that the man hours cost was quite reasonable at the time (about £60/hour including tax). Don't forget to take the clutch + bearing out of the equation when you are looking a the major.
Ok, so if I understand you right, your engine out cam belt service cost you in the region of 2500 euros in labour, 1500 in parts, all before tax, obviously. Not really sure how much the US guys can do it for these days but I can't really work out how the UK places are doing (by the schedule using Ferrari parts) for so much less. Out of curiosity, what were the parts? Maybe there's a discrepency there as I thought the parts were a couple of gasket sets, belts (obviously) and oil. Didn't know there was much else to buy.
A local Ferrari dealer here in Florida recently offered a flat rate for major services. 348 / 355 / Mondial T = $6500 At current exchange rates, that equates to 5055 Euro, 4020 GBP. (Editorial note, I know this particular dealer very well - I take my car to them. Quality of work is exceptional.)
Got say, I'm not overly surprised, perhaps it was bound to happen eventually. Thing is once you get prices up front then the market does come into play. I'm not one to call any of the pro techs over there theives, mostly coz I don't think they are, but the only real question I would have is that if I walk into a BMW dealer the service prices are on the wall. Same goes for a Merc dealer, Porsche dealer, Jag place etc. It used to be that Ferrari places over here were different and it was all done on time etc but with some going to fixed price services (ie the indies) the rest (ie the main dealers) have had to tow the line or loose custom. BTW which part of Florida are you from? Spent a bit of time over that way, my folks owned a condo in a place called Treasure Island near Tampa for years.
I'm in the Orlando area (which may give away which dealer I'm talking about). I don't know the Tampa area very well I'm afraid - we usually hang out on the east coast beaches. The flat rate offers have started coming from a few dealers over here. Fort Lauderdale and Long Island I believe were the first. Also, a few places have started offering reduced hourly rates for older cars. $99 per hour for model year 99 or older for instance. I have always been a firm believer that you get what you pay for, and have never had qualms about paying a bit more to get top quality. So if a shop that does first rate work wants to give me a deal as well... OK by me! Edit: Not meaning to imply that the independants around here are necessarily lower quality - Tim Stanford, Speedworks etc. are all top shelf shops as well.
Got to say the main dealers here aren't exactly charging by the hour and do charge less for the older cars. I quizzed one of the service managers at one of the main dealers about this and his rationale was that to service cars like the 458 you need both specialist equipment and the mechanics all have to go to Italy to be trained on the specifics of the model. They don't pass on the cost of that to owners of the older models. Regarding Florida, I've obviously flown into Orlando a bunch of times and done the theme park thing a few times in my youth. Treasure Island is on the string of islands attached to the west coast of St Petersberg. Not a bad place to spend the winter, as my folks do.
I am gunna stir the pot here with a stick of dynamite. I do not own a 348 or 355 but I do own a 308. I wrench my own car. I get help from the PROs here and I have had to take one part to Ferrari of Bayruth, GE and paid $1200.00 for a tiny repair it turns out I didn't need. The shape of the parts in question from my car are NOT depicted in any Ferrari manual ANYWHERE and I have almost all ever printed for the 1980's cars in paper or etons. (Hold that thought). FoB had never seen that situation before. "The Learning Wrench" here is pulling "a MAJOR" on my car now. A bunch of you here are likely going down a "Bad Road." The same road I went down and got decidedly SPANKED for it by a couple of the PROs awhile back. Upon cold reflection and rubbing my sore virtual backside, I decided ............ they were absolutely correct. I deserved it. Now, What EXACTLY IS "a Major?" What EXACTLY does it entail? Now before you answer, many of the PROs here, have worked FOR Ferrari for years and left, setting up their own shops. And guess what? They DO NOT AGREE on what "a MAJOR" is. But we owners know because we read a book? Um-Kay. Ah! But, THEY DO AGREE. They agree on the small finite list that Ferrari specifies AND THEY AGREE INCLUDING ANYTHING ELSE that is uncovered that needs fixing/replacing based upon years of experience. The manuals do not specify this. Remember, these manuals you keep quoting were written BEFORE the first car of that make left the factory. They were nothing more than a crystal ball for a NEW car. These cars are hardly "new" today. The years, miles and crappy POs have taken huge tolls on these cars. The manuals have not been updated well as the cars age and more unforseen issues become known. I mean gee wiz, they are Italian for Goodness Sakes. In a phrase, They have become Great "coffee table fodder." So as a PRO comes across things needing fixing, he/she(YES, there are a couple) STRONGLY desires to fix it. Knowingly letting a substandard car out of the shop is an absolute NO-GO without the owner's knowledge and OK, most likely IN WRITING. Now let me ask you a question? Who is going to have the LARGER INCENTIVE to SHORTSHIFT the owner. I said "INCENTIVE", I did not say "WOULD." a) The Wrench that works the agreed to tasks (MAJOR) AND calls seeking approval when discovering parts that need or may soon need fixing OUTSIDE of the agreed to tasks (MAJOR). Their experience comes into play here in a huge way. Obviously the price goes UP. And it can go, Surprise, WAY UP!!! or, b) The Wrench that quotes "The Book," sets a fixed price, and does it for that. The END. If other faults or potential faults are discovered he or she does not worry about it as it was not in the contract. He sticks to the agreed to price regardless. You GOT YOUR (Contracted) MAJOR. For a fixed price. Nothing more, Nothing less. But you may or may NOT (most likely) get a well sorted car back. Remember all, when these cars fail, due to their interference engine design, it is usually damn near fatal. To the car or the owner's wallet. So, if there was ever a better case of making the decision of "Pay Um Now or, Pay Um Later," I do not know of it. Best of Luck.
Don't believe that I said that a customer was charged for those little extra things that can make their service experience maybe a little shall we say 'easier' to justify. Neither did Tim, we merely take extra time to check and maybe clean things over and above the "list". The fact that I like a good many shops over here will always replace things like fasteners to enhance the finished product doesn't take extra time and only a little extra money but will give an important warm fuzziness when delivering the car, just like the washed and cleaned car and wheels. You don't want it? Fine, it was free, just cost me a little time, you can have your car back happy, but for me that is below MY standard. Now, anything that shows up that DOES involve a charge or extra parts is pre=agreed with a revised estimate. Don't want the leakdown? No worries, I do it to establish my records for that car, no point in me selling you a service on a car with 18% leakage on a cylinder IMO. I can't answer the last question, for me to do that with blinders on to all around is not the way I roll, I wouldn't even take on the job.
I got you. The picture is a little clearer for me now, appreciate you guys taking the time to answer some questions and I appreciate the tone of the last posts. So the next question is, is a 360 with it's lower cost major really better or does it miss a lot of stuff that you get with the engine out major of a 348/355? Are you saving maintenance cost or just deferring it?
