348 Timing Belt Failure?????

I'm thinking of removing the timing cover caps to inspect the belts (I think this is possible as it looks like just 2 bolts each). Has anyone else tried this?
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If you have the plastic timing covers, I advise you to *NOT* do that. The plastic can/does crack, and the brass bushings break free. There is not much you can assess from the caps, and a whole lot that can go wrong.

Just my 2-cents.

 

As I said required by law. If you do not get a specific (Very specific) estimate in advance of the work and authorize it, you owe nothing. It is enforced by the Department of Consumer Affairs every GD day. If they go over estimate you owe nothing in excess of the original estimate. Period.

It is a good law and if your mechanic is not following it you have no one to blame but yourself.



And for the record everything else being discussed in this thread is a load of crap.

Change the belts, they break, they really do and the 348 and 355 experiences we had are exactly why Ferrari went to 3 years. I have seen far too many of both have belt failures prior to 5 years.

And the comments about the money saved on belt services going to an overhaul when it breaks is about the stupidest and irresponsible thing I have heard. I don't know about you guys but there is no room in my garage for a car I can't drive to New York tomorrow. And I have no desire to share the same highway with someone so carless about their car.


If you can't afford it buy a Toyota.

 

My response here is advice for the OP:

There is no way it can be 20 hours, and there is no way it can be 24 hours.

I have the service records of a 348, it was done in 32 hours HOWEVER in the words of the shop owner "this was an immaculate 348 that did not require a single 'while we're in there' service"....they checked the engine, from top to bottom, with a fine tooth comb, and it needed only the seals, belts, tensioners, fluids, timing, etc...and I think they even replaced the hoses.

This example is the exception, not the norm...

 

Not to mention our exposure to "implied warranties" and such...........For that fixed price, all I's are dotted and T's are crossed but 90% think that their 15-20 year old car should be as new or better because we worked on it.

For more reasons, research PPI. The typical reaction to a shop carrying out a PPI has led most shops to no longer expose themselves to the ridiculous expectations of many.

 

Talk about a bitter sweet love affair.. Sad and I feel sorry that you've had such a traumatic experience with your 348 but really i think your car must be an exception more than the rule. I've had my 92 348ts 41/2 yrs now and try to get it out every other weekend or whenever sunny. I'm no track demon but mine has been very reliable with no problems other than an oil temp sender unit packing up ! Even the glove compartment strut still works !!! (fingers crossed I guess !!!)

 

5-6 working days --- Unfortunately it is attitudes like this that only widden the gap. Fingermarks on paint, cleaning your tools, wash and balance the wheels all the while charging me at $150 - $180/hr or whatever a Ferrari mechanic charges..... what about lunch and toilet breaks... charge for them too !! and as for the 1 hr pre drive and 2 hr post drive..!! Sorry not on my car you wont ...I will take option 2 thanks !!!!

 

.....all fun and slander aside (sorry about the toilet crack before!) I think the there is an underlying issue here and I've brought this up before with my own FC club here in Melbourne.
The makeup of the Ferrari owner today is changing dramatically and is quite different to 10 - 20 years ago. Gone are the days where to own a Ferrari was a privilege of the rich and famous only, who would take their cars to be serviced at the 'specially trained' Ferrari mechanics who in turn would charge a premium for their services. No disrespect, you are trained and likely trained well but so are the Lexus mechanics of my own car and the BMW, Jaguar etc etc. All luxury cars of today are highly refined bits of machinery and I doubt if a Ferrari mechanic could strip down my Lexus V8 or a BMW 3L any more than they could a Ferrari engine without proper training. Having said that, there is no magic in working on a Ferrari. It is still just a car...!
Ferrari's now are more affordable than ever before as more high volume models become older. There are so many now to choose from for the price of a std luxury 4 cylinder. Even here in Oz where Ferrar's are expensive you can get into a GT4, 308, even the big 365's and 400i for a song, $AUD 40- 70K. This is what is happening in the UK and why prices are coming down.
This has bred a new generation DYI’s who are not scared of their Ferrari’s. Parts are easy to get (and some stuff for the 348 is really cheap now). Ferrari's are not mystical; it’s a car with a piston engine like all the others. I've worked many cars and on Alfa's for years and rebuilt the engine of my previous Alfa Montreal because I wasn't scared of the mythical beast and all the info I needed was freely available on sites like this. I'm all for std rates even if the mechanics need to include disclaimers.
I spoke to an Indie recommended to me who works from home (has a great rep) who quoted $AUD3,600 std cam-belt with tensioners for my 348 (he also claimed every two years it should be done !!). Just now I rang the 'official' dealership here in Melbourne and was quoted the official dealership price of $AUD6,800 for a std cam-belt service (admittedly it was a cold call and he did qualify it by saying if I came in they can look after me !!!).
So there is no surprise that the owners are desperate to get some sort of standardisation or bench mark on which we can make decisions and are so weary of unscrupulous mechanics who choose to hide the facts amongst the myth, scare us, try to justify their pricing by washing our wheels and wiping dirty finger marks off our duco, asserting that others wouldn’t..!!!
So I can see why the pros are feeling so threatened by the 'invasion of the DIY's' (can see it clearly in some of these posts...wow !)
Now I don't want to do my own major but I don't want to pay a fortune to someone else either JUST because it is a Ferrari. I think my attitude is typical and only going to get stronger amongst Ferrari owners as the landscape changes and more 'average payee' types like myself realise their dreams of owning a Ferrari.
So I put it to all the 'pro' mechanics out there. Give us the incentive to bring our cars in, be competitive, be fair, be transparent and realise the time of the 'mystical Ferrari' is gone. This way you will only build business not lose it. What is happening in the UK will happen here as well. Do you want to grow from it or close down ?

 

Want to answer both Brians but may get confusing so will resort to Riffledriver, sorry you feel that way, ie everything discussed here is utter cr*p. I don't think what you've said is Just pulling your leg, mate. Anyway, sounds like your laws are a tad tighter than ours. Over here an estimate is just that, a professional guess, if the bill is above the estimate, too bad. A quote, which is what a fixed price is, is entirely different, it's what you WILL pay. Bill comes to any more than the quote, you don't have to pay it.

Regarding getting a Toyota instead, no thanks. I don't know if your comment is aimed at all at me but having just had my annual carried out by a main dealer, a complete detail carried out by Topaz detailing of Kensington (kind of pricey part of London, feel free to check out my car- Topaz detail is a few threads down) and now having a full interior retrim in Andrew muirhead leather (suppliers to Aston and Rolls I believe) to include ditching the interior vinyl, I can, at a push afford to run a Ferrari. Besides as I said, think I'll have my engine out on the 3 year point, I quite like to get everything freshened up anyway. What I'm getting at is that your comment can be taken one of two ways - if you can't afford it, don't get one (which is I guess what you mean) or equally, you should be wealthy enough that it doesn't matter what you're charged.

I've got to say, in a friendly way, I have been pretty polite over the course of the thread even when direct questions haven't necessarily been answered because they might be a little close to the bone. Personally I want to know how the dealers over here can do the work so bl**dy cheaply now where it used to cost the same as over there. I know a few and the answer I get is that that is what it costs. You tell me it isn't, must be sub-standard work in every UK garage (HR Owen, DK Engineering, Graypauls, et al). Sorry, just don't buy that.

 

That's a real pitty Brian. Over here in the UK we rely heavily on the pro tech fraternity fo PPIs - I wouldn't buy a Ferrari without one, to be honest.

And my 348 isn't as new - she's better, far more character than a new car.

 

Sorry that you are incapable of reading and understanding all of my posts. #58 was explained in #99. Nothing in either about a one or two hour drive. you are the typical reason for this internet crap, totally miss the facts and put your spin on things which will be regurgitated by the next and then the next. Remember those little games in school? Start at the end of the line, whisper on a sentence, 12 kids later, completely different and wrong!

 

So there is no surprise that the owners are desperate to get some sort of standardisation or bench mark on which we can make decisions and are so weary of unscrupulous mechanics who choose to hide the facts amongst the myth, scare us, try to justify their pricing by washing our wheels and wiping dirty finger marks off our duco, asserting that others wouldn’t..!!!


Care to point us in the direction of any posts that justify that remark? I have not belittled any DIYer nor other shop. I merely pointed out that I and others will actually spend a considerable amount of time on a job which often (mostly) is not charged. It's the reason I have a 6 month waiting list, it's the reason I have never had to advertise in 20 years, and I wish I could get that kind of rate for my work! I give people my price for a job, that is finalised after inspecting the car and again modified if other things surface during the job. Never twisted anyone's arm to bring their car here, never BS'd a job to screw anyone. Often had to redo other shop's work for people that chose to take cars elsewhere for whatever reason.

 

It seems to me like we might get to a point someday where the best financial decision on a 348 is to buy it, drive it until the engine craters and then part it out. Fortunatley I don't think of my 355 in financial terms. You can go to Michael Sheehan's website and read all about how expensive 90's Ferraris are to maintain and get very discouraged. Too bad for him though that he has to think of Ferraris in those terms. He has to think about the financial aspects of Ferrari ownership, that's how he makes his living. I can lose money on every Ferrari I own. He doesn't have that luxury. I enjoy taking my car to the shop. I like the people I meet there. This is my hobby, if I didn't spend my money on this what would I spend it on?

 

+1,000!

 

It's nice to see Rifledriver posting again. I might personally disagree with some of what he's posted (I believe in 5 years)... but his opinion is respected and appreciated.

 

Yep. I ALWAYS learn something valuable from him.



Sorry I missed you this summer Brian.

 

Agreed, problem is that a lot of posts on this thread alone are the very reason that Brian and MANY others no longer bother. Not only here on Chat, but Life and Talk too have deteriorated into petty-post forums for all the same internet chaff. Thank goodness for that antiquated telephone.

 

Very patronising. You really think professional Ferrari specialists are going to be run out of business, and are threatened by, DIY'ers? If that was the case there wouldn't be so many shop owners on here dishing out free advice. Where do you think half the information on the 'net about these cars originate? Do you really believe we are all sat by the phone hoping and praying for you to bring your car in for a belt service? Like others, I am plenty busy enough, actively help DIY'ers and give out free advise, as well as cut-price diagnostic sessions on very expensive and personally paid for specialist equipment. As has been said, posts such as this is why the degree to which you get specialist help is on the decline. Shame....

 

Exactly and thanks for speaking your mind..... There's just way, way too much of this arrogant attitude which has indeed driven many pros away. I guess that now that "he could afford" a Ferrari, we should all just give away our time, equipment use and most important, experience. I guess my question would be if there's no mystique left in either owning or servicing a Ferrari, just why is it so difficult to find great service?

 

Actually (and I have a 360 now but will have a 348 to compliment it in the future..) I don't think that the Ferrari owner has changed at all over the last 20 years.
Your average car owner that doesn't "like" to drive because a car just gets you from point A to B isn't a Ferrari owner. There are Ferrari owners that buy a Ferrari to let it sit in their garage and drive it twice a year 5 miles to the country club, they might not even know what a "clutch pack" even is.. but they know their car has one and is "very expensive" to fix. There are FCar owners that fix their cars in the garage and those that could but don't. This has been the constant for decades. Are Volvo drivers suddenly moving to 355's en masse? No (thank god)

The difference between the 348 and the 355.. is the engine has to come out to change the belts. I DO my own work and this seems dicey in my garage. Will a professional be enlisted? Yes. What separates a knowedgeable owner (DIY'er)? The ability to spot BS from a shop. All good mechanics will have the respect from this owner and will not loose one bit of business. There is a difference between a professional and a very good DIY'er. (Also note good DIY'ers and bad DIY'ers!)

You want to see examples of the DIY car? Take a look at some 928's on craigslist. One owner gets it, tries to fix it themselves and duct tape/electrical tapes it all back together because parts are still porsche expensive but the car can be had for less than $5k USD. By the third owner it's ready for parting out in some rednecks yard. Ferrari's are still expensive enough that I doubt we'll see this.. But as far as a good, reputable mechanic feeling threated by a DIY'er? Not a chance.

 

Not necessary to look far on this forum and find many threads created by self appointed experts nor the consequences.

 

Brain i don't know you and only go by what i read and you wrote........................................

Naturally I'll let the old oil and coolant just swill around somewhere, throw the dirty tools in a pile on the bench, leave any fingermarks on the paint, forget about the wash and balance the wheels, wash and vacuum the car, bag the old parts for the customer, print off the invoice with the photographic record along with the scan readout and cylinder leakage numbers to save time and get closer to er maybe 30 hours!
I'm with Tim, 5-6 days minimum for me. Want it cheaper, quicker? Not me pal.

....................... Your words not mine so if you’re going to be so provocative and dish out the attitude on such a subject then what do you expect.... !!??
This whole thread started with I guess me and others asking about genuine info on cambelt services for the 348,355 and DIYs and owners at least tried to offer their advice only to be shot down in flames by the pro's who, from what I can see here, feel threatened and insulted by the questioning of their practises and pricing regimes which seem to be shrouded in a cloak of mystery. Instead they just mock the DIYs labelling them as amateurs who don’t know what they are talking about. Just read some of those attacks on the bloke who at least itemised some hours on labour. At least he’s trying to clarify the point. What happened, the pro’s had a field day canning him offering no real advice or details just bagged him as a stupid amateur who doesn’t know what he was talking about.
At the end of the day the UK is a dam sight cheaper than here in Oz and for no real reason that I can see other than less competition from Indies here so we have no choice but to pay up if we want to use a pro !

 

.....and you call me arrogant...! wow ! What so your equipment, your experience, your time, is SSSOOO much more than say a lexus, BMW, Audi, Renault etc etc mechanic...! Yeah and I'm arogant..!

and its OK for Brian who seems to be a seasoned vertran to say.........

Naturally I'll let the old oil and coolant just swill around somewhere, throw the dirty tools in a pile on the bench, leave any fingermarks on the paint, forget about the wash and balance the wheels, wash and vacuum the car, bag the old parts for the customer, print off the invoice with the photographic record along with the scan readout and cylinder leakage numbers to save time and get closer to er maybe 30 hours!
I'm with Tim, 5-6 days minimum for me. Want it cheaper, quicker? Not me pal.

That's OK ah ................come on who's kidding who here !!! You can give it with all your condescending comments but you get all delicate when one of us gives back !

 

"What so your equipment, your experience, your time, is SSSOOO much more than say a lexus, BMW, Audi, Renault etc etc mechanic...! Yeah and I'm arogant..!"


Yes it is....I fly 767's for a living, so NO, I'm not a mechanic. However, at work, an error on my part costs CONSIDERABLY more than an error on a small turbo-prop. Is the pilot on the turbo-prop as qualified as me?-probably.....but my exposure to costly risk (lives and equipment) is much, much greater than the 19 seat turbo-prop....and I fully expect to get compensated for it.

A mechanic makes a mistake on a lexus, yes it's costly, but no-where near as costly as a mistake on a vintage -possibly NLA part- Ferrari. It's only through countless hours of careful attentive work, intense self-critique, and constantly operating under the tremendous load of unique responsibility, that a true professional emerges.....worth more?-You bet it is...

 

..... an interesting angle on the discussion I'll grant you that however perhaps more relevant would be if the aviation mechanics who work on 767's are paid considerably more per hour than aviation mechanics who work on turbo props because of the same rational you site above !!!???