Best fast plane for student pilot? | FerrariChat

Best fast plane for student pilot?

Discussion in 'Aviation Chat' started by [email protected], Nov 10, 2012.

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  1. mixxalot@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Formula Junior

    Feb 9, 2006
    357
    Carmichael, CA
    Full Name:
    JD
    Gents,

    I am training for my private pilot license as it is a dream since child hood. I decided to postpone my F-car purchase to complete this goal and eventually own a nice low mileage plane. I am taking lessons in a steam gauge older Cessna 172N which works for low rental cost and good for training. Eventually I want a high performance single that can haul a decent amount of gear and get me from San Francisco to San Diego quickly and in comfort. But new aircraft cost a fortune north of 600k for the new Cirrus SR22 and Cessna 400 for instance. So, what high performance used reliable aircraft would you recommend for this mission profile that can be had for under 300k? My end goal is to have a nice hangar home outside the overpriced crowded bay area and fly into work twice a week and work remote the rest of the time and be able to scoot to Vegas and southern California quickly.
     
  2. joker57676

    joker57676 Two Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 12, 2005
    23,767
    Sin City
    Full Name:
    Deplorie McDeplorableface
    I say this not to be an ass, but you really should get a lot of hours under your belt before you step into a high performance single. The Cirrus is the new doctor killer (formerly the Bonanza v-tail) because way too many people jump into them, or similar, without enough time. If you're training in a 172, look at renting a 182, and then a 210 for a while. Low wing vs. high wing is not a massive deal, but they are different.

    Mark
     
  3. ylshih

    ylshih Shogun Assassin
    Honorary Owner

    Mar 21, 2004
    19,809
    Northern CA
    Full Name:
    Yin
    Stick with a 172, Piper or Diamond for training. They are slower, more forgiving and easier to land. A fast airplane means that everything happens faster and it will be harder to stay ahead of the airplane. If you want semi-reliable San Francisco - San Diego travel, I would also continue on to your instrument rating and I would also do that with a regular trainer. Training for IFR in a high performance aircraft can get very frustrating.

    After your training, when you're ready to move up, there are lots of Mooney 201, 231 and 252's in the $100-200K bracket and they will cruise at 150-190 knots with a long range. I had one and one of the reasons I liked it was because there is a very low record of inflight structural failures for that airframe, the wings have been tested to over 9G's and didn't break. This is in comparison to the V-tail Bonanza, which has a rep as a "doctor-killer".
     
  4. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    no such thing...

    to be faster an airplane needs to get more complex, which is the opposite of what a student needs... a simple push to go button is all that is needed until the ability to fly is mastered
     
  5. n9013c

    n9013c Rookie

    Aug 13, 2006
    31
    Carmichael, CA
    Full Name:
    Jim Smith
    The insurance company will pretty much dictate how high performance of an airplane you can own based on your flying experience. Remember, your Private Pilot license is really a license to learn.
     
  6. donv

    donv Two Time F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    Jan 5, 2002
    23,988
    Portland, Oregon
    Full Name:
    Don
    I agree with the others that you should build some time in the 172, and further I think you should get your instrument rating. If you can get your instrument rating in the steam gauge airplane, I would do so. Then try the G1000 airplanes for a bit.

    Then, a Cirrus or a Cessna Corvalis would be pretty good for the mission you describe. Just remember that these are not all weather aircraft, so you may have to cancel some trips, even with an instrument rating.
     
  7. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    Isn't there a saying," Never let the airplane reach the destination 15 minutes before your brain does." ? I wouldn't rush an upgrade...John Kennedy....
     
  8. toggie

    toggie F1 World Champ
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Nov 30, 2003
    19,036
    Virginia
    Full Name:
    Toggie (Ron)
    #8 toggie, Nov 10, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I looked at similar options when I first got my PPL a little over 3 years ago.
    I ended up buying a 2009 Cessna 182 with a G1000 panel.

    The 182 was an easy step up from the 172 I trained in.
    If handles a lot like a 172, just a little heavier in the nose and a bit more torque at the beginning of the take-off run.
    It is a 6-cylinder 230 hp plane vs. the 160 or 180 hp 4-cylinder 172.

    My plane is fixed gear so the only new checklist items from a 172 are cowl flaps and the propeller control knob.
    I had no problem getting insurance quotes for a 182 even though my PPL was brand new.

    I cruise at 140 - 145 kts and get decent gas mileage out of it when I lean to 11.5 to 12 gph.
    Lots of useful load and I almost never fill it up past the fuel tabs, so this leaves even more room for payload.
    Full fuel is 87 gallons which is 7 hours plus of flying time - way more than my bladder could ever handle. :)

    Sure other planes go faster but do some flight planning and calculate the extra time it would take in a 182 versus those other planes.
    I think you'll discover it isn't that much of a penalty to fly something that is such an easy transition for you (the 182).

    Lots of people step up to much faster airplanes than the 182 but for my needs it has worked out great.
    The one thing to consider in your situation is it is easy to buy a nice used 182 and they are one of the easier planes to sell also.

    Here's a pic of my flying machine.
    .
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  9. n9013c

    n9013c Rookie

    Aug 13, 2006
    31
    Carmichael, CA
    Full Name:
    Jim Smith
    Well put Toggie. The C-182 is a great aircraft with a superb safety record. Yours is exceptionally nice.
     
  10. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    for a rainy day project, review the settings of your wings and empenage... there are adjustment screws in the wing root that allow for fine trim / recalibration after the air frame comes off the build jig and is flown for a while, the air frame settles in... doing a little adjusting on the rig / trim would allow for a normal cruise in the 155 knot range and increase fuel economy... it's a simple trail and error, not difficult at all, just a couple trips around the patch to verify the work, it became part of our predelivery inspection on all the Cessna. It starts with reviewing trim tab settings...

    "speed shops" charge can charge big money for this ( when it is a simple adjustment, NOT magic ), kind of like getting an alignment and wheel balance on a car
     
  11. solofast

    solofast Formula 3

    Oct 8, 2007
    1,773
    Indianapolis
    When I was doing cross country air racing this was very commonly known tweak. Because the 182's had a book speed of 140kts (their handicap speed), when retrimmed this way they were hard to beat.

    However... I was also told that this trim change could effect the stall characteristics (I believe that it was related to accelerated stall characteristis in that it gave you more nose up authority than the airplane was supposed to have) and it wasn't for someone that didn't know how to handle it.. I don't recall exactly (it was close to 30 years ago when I was doing this) but it was something like that.
     
  12. m5guy

    m5guy Formula 3

    Aug 17, 2008
    1,627
    Ventura, CA.
    Full Name:
    Greg
    #12 m5guy, Nov 10, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2012
    Mixxalot, some of the best advice I ever got on airplanes was from the guys in this forum. All the experienced pilots here told me the same thing: Put a lot of hours into your logbook before moving up to something faster. Cessna 152, 172, Diamond DA-20 etc will all get you there fast enough.

    If the airport you are training at has a nice, straight-in approach, you may not be getting the full exposure to what other challenges await you in the GA world. I'm training out of KSZP (check out the landing pattern on the airport website -- you have to hug the mountainside whether you are coming in from the east or west) and once my instructor stopped assisting me on my landings, all I wanted to do was to fly a nice, slow docile plane. The Cessna 162 that I train in has a VSo stall with flaps of 37 knots, and that gives me plenty of time on final to figure everything out.

    Good luck on the journey!
     
  13. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    that would have been a more aggressive adjustment, what we adjusted kept the plane within design parameters which did not change any of the published parameters and would have prevented us from selling the plane
     
  14. mixxalot@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Formula Junior

    Feb 9, 2006
    357
    Carmichael, CA
    Full Name:
    JD
    Thanks guys for the great tips. Never realized so many F-car owners were aviators as well! Guess I am in the right path to have both dreams a fun F430 spyder someday and my own bird after finishing my checkride. I am looking at doing my instrument rating in a C182 or Piper Turbo Arrow after my PPL next year. Anyways I'll need to save and invest for a few years before buying my first plane. Looking for an airpark home as my dream place is the goal after building up enough hours and ratings.
     
  15. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    Good! Build up the hours by exploring places and situations outside of the comfort zone of your local airport but do it in a progressive way as you learn. You're young and there is no rush to cancel your chance to grow old by exceeding your capabilities. Take your time and LEARN what you must do engage in the joy of flying for a long time.
     
  16. kverges

    kverges F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
    3,179
    Dallas
    Full Name:
    Keith Verges
    FWIW I have never flown solo in anything but a Cirrus. Long story as to why but did all my training in a SR20 and 22 and have a share in a SR22. Only have maybe 160 hours and fly VFR only. That said I think I am very conservative and have canceled many a flight to travel ground or commercial, once even because I did not like the gusty crosswind METAR at my destination. I did think it was awfully hard to get to solo, and don't know that I'd do it again the way I did, but I think the PIC makes the flight more than does the aircraft. Get lots of training, esp slow flight and whatever you feel worst at. You can find a nice SR22 for under $200K FWIW
     
  17. ztunelover

    ztunelover Formula Junior

    Oct 1, 2009
    641
    Calgary, AB
    Full Name:
    Krish
    #17 ztunelover, Nov 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    No no no, don't listen to these guys, I got a fantastic single engine trainer aircraft in mind. And i'm sure you can find one at 300k... for the first installment at any rate.

    In all seriousness, why go for faster stuff if you haven't mastered the slow stuff already? Faster planes are more expensive to buy and maintain. Do you get a 911 as your first car? No it's too much car for someone with very little time behind the wheel. A nice little piper arrow should do the trick no? Simple light, not too fast, my buddy at springbank airport near my place tells me it's a reasonably maneuverable little buggers, and it has some big boy feauters for you to play with. And they aren't very expensive to begin with.
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  18. mixxalot@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Formula Junior

    Feb 9, 2006
    357
    Carmichael, CA
    Full Name:
    JD
    Awesome- I am really having fun training for the pilot license even in the older Cessnas. Initially I flew a C150/152 but as a big guy these were way too small so moved to C172N for the trainer. My CFI says I learn quickly and have a good feel for the plane. I've done turns, climbs and ascents and next week will start learning how to do slow flights! It will be a few years before I buy my first plane so I'll continue training and get checked out in different low wing/high wing singles to build experience and eventually find what will fit my mission profile. I do like the Cirrus but heard the accidents kinda scare me away. Diamond makes nice planes but they are slow for the money I'd rather have a Mooney M20K 251 or Beechcraft Bonanza. Fortunately, the plane and Ferrari will be affordable in few years for my budget so I can have a cool hangar setup.
     
  19. kverges

    kverges F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
    3,179
    Dallas
    Full Name:
    Keith Verges
    If you have not done slow flight and stalls, let me suggest you focus on the training and book work and worry about the fast plane, later.

    In fact, that sort of surprises me. I swear my instructors made me do slow flight and stalls almost every single lesson it seemed like.

    Basic maneuvers are easy, a nice 45-degree turn where you fly into your own wingtip vortex is more challenging and deliberately stalling with power has always bothered me. So unnatural.
     
  20. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    Slow flight, stalls, spins, and rudder exercise stalls were daily diet when I was training. "45 degree turn" and hitting the tip vortex. I'm not sure what that would be but it reminds me of another exercise, 720's...a near vertical bank and two 360 deg. turns, maintaining your altitude so that you hit your wake on each turn. Then roll from a right turn to a left turn and keep going around in the opposite direction, hitting your wake again in each turn. I had two of these on my check ride. Deep stalls under full power is good for spin training because if you screw up in maintaining directional control you will soon see the farmers fields go round and round . Then you should better know how to pull power quickly and recover from the spin. This exercise thoroughly wakes up your feet so that you know what the rudder pedals are for, especially when they are the only control that has any airflow on it in a power-on deep stall. Lot of fun.
     
  21. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    I am a strong advocate that all new pilots take a few aerobatic lessons... for the full range of attitudes covered to the point that "no" attitude is unusual...
     
  22. Bob Parks

    Bob Parks F1 Veteran
    Consultant

    Nov 29, 2003
    7,911
    Shoreline,Washington
    Full Name:
    Robert Parks
    My favorite high in the Stearman was to pull back power, pull the nose up, stick back in the gut, kick left rudder, and do a three turn spin. Then go from the spin into a loop and finish with an aileron roll or anything that I could think of. Lazy eights were a nice exercise in energy control and coordination as was rolling on a point. Snap rolls are fun, too. I can't believe that all that seems like a century ago and I doubt that I could do it very well now but I do it in my head all the time. Hmm, That was almost 67 years ago.
     
  23. cheesey

    cheesey Formula 3

    Jun 23, 2011
    1,921
    my friend and aerobatics instructor had a Stearman, had a lot of joy rides in it with him, like you I look back to fond memories in it. One memory that I avoided was when his prop fell off. The crankshaft sheared at the prop. It's good one can make them land on a postage stamp with no damage.
     
  24. kverges

    kverges F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
    3,179
    Dallas
    Full Name:
    Keith Verges
    I was referring to "wake," which I understand is actually a wingtip vortex and is probably a bit more prominent as you are pulling more Gs and angle of attack in a steep turn. That routine sounds marvelous
     
  25. rob lay

    rob lay Administrator
    Staff Member Admin Miami 2018 Owner

    Dec 1, 2000
    59,407
    Southlake, TX
    Full Name:
    Rob Lay
    I went 172 - tailwheel - 182 - 400 route and it has worked out and been smooth. Insurance liked the transitions and hours too.

    You could put SR20 in place of 182, but I think SR20 is more a 2 person plane, the 182 is a solid XC 4 person plane.

    You can get 2006 400's with G1000 for $350k+. As Keith said some SR22's are better value, but the older ones are the ones with more risk. Once Cirrus duplicated the 400 wing a few years back there is virtually no difference in safety between the 22 and 400.

    If budget is less than $250k I would look at the Mooney or Bo.

    yesterday's flight, Durango to Ft. Worth 2 hours 35 minutes with a slight tail.

    http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N641WB/history/20121112/1910Z/KDRO/52F
     

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