'Ethanol in gasoline and its effects on collector cars'

What the title in Hemmings should have said is "Ethanol in gasoline and effects on cars in storage". Not just classic or vintage cars, but any car that sits for weeks or months could have issues, as the ethanol will seperate from the gas and potentially damage components.

Solution?

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp

I found a station six blocks from me with pure gas.

 

This is going to be hard to avoid a P&R move. the topic should avoid the reason for the ethanol blends and stick to the scientific and technical effects. That end of the conversation has been hotly discussed here before.

in the end, ethanol is the cancer that will destroy a large percentage of automobiles in existence. either re-design the vehicle to run on ethanol blends or regulate the car to show piece only, that's cold reality of the future.

the hygroscopic nature of ethanol is the problem, water is the best solvent. there's more to the chemistry here as well. ionic and polar substances such as acids, alcohols, and salts are easily soluble in water, and nonpolar substances such as fats and oils are not. Nonpolar molecules stay together in water because it is energetically more favorable for the water molecules to hydrogen bond to each other than to engage in van der Waals interactions with nonpolar molecules. due to the solvent ability of water it will have a salute that can carry charge, then electrolysis can begin. the problem with coolant systems, this is also going to happen in fuel systems with exposed metals and ethanol/water. it'll also speed up the phase separation too. exposed aluminum and brass, carburetors will produce aluminum hydroxide, they'll also be much faster at producing problems with ethanol blends.

there are ways to 'wash' the fuel - not legal btw- and that would go a long ways for a short fix. use race fuel, also not legal for the highway but a minor point and far less risky then getting caught washing ethanol out of fuel.

 

Wow... I'm a ChemE so I got a little aroused by this post... Well done Sir!

 

BTW- I just spent >$3k dealing with this issue on my car. Pics were posted... Almost unbelievable. AND I use Stabil...

 

You need to buy Stabil for Ethanol. The regular stabil does not prevent ethanol damage while Stabil for Ethanol gas will prevent damage.

 

Anyone who has ever visited a UK bar and ordered a mixed drink knows that when you add a 6 oz bottle of anything to 20 gallons of hogwash you still get a major hangover.

 

Thanks, coming from a ChemE that helps let me know I grasp chemistry better than I thought.

It's a complex issue for sure.

 

OK, now we have 3 scientists on this thread. (nice explanation, smg). Still, the polar- non polar , like - likes- like concept may not excite many members (initially). But, good advice to them is study this, and youll get the idea/gist of the ethanol/gasoline issues.

Its your ferrari.

 

That leads down the road to main problem. When you look at ethanol/fuel blends from a purely scientific and logical point, you end up asking "why do it?, the results are not favorable and horribly inefficient." the answer is sadly not one based on science that is beneficial to the IC engine.

 

It was interesting to note that Ethanol can be made from ANY grain, including sugar.....I'd be interested in reading if some of the CONS associated with Ethanol production from Corn can be mitigated by manufacturing Ethanol from some-other grain our agricultural resources could produce in large quantities.

I'd also be interested in any data that can correlate fuel efficiencies with different ethanol grades, or grain components.

 

ethanol from 'sugar', corn, sugar beet, sugar cane,etc.. corn is used due to political reasons and also why it's in the fuel. that's not going to change anytime soon.

as to efficiencies, that comes down to Mj/L more on that in a bit. pure ethanol auto ignition is 362*C with a 108 octane rating vs. gasoline 280*C & avg 91 octane. this allows for the use of higher compression ratios and the use of forced induction to achieve higher efficiencies from the use of ethanol. but that's the catch, an engine designed for gasoline will not run efficiently on ethanol, and conversely an engine designed for ethanol will not run on gasoline efficiently.
Mj/L or energy density is the most telling.
Ethanol: 21.2
Gasoline: 34.8
Diesel: 38.6
Hydrogen: 120~142
this is all a simplification as the molecular phase state does effect the energy density esp, Hydrogen.

from a pure practical view ethanol is low on the energy density scale. factor in the growth and harvest energy costs it and comes out even lower. one can also see why hydrogen is the holy grail of alternative energy.

if we ignore the energy density and take a look at the combustible byproducts, ethanol and once again esp, hydrogen come out on top.

the flame speed and temperature is also another factor that gets rather long and complex to cover in this post.

to effectively use ethanol correctly the entire system needs to be designed around it. deviation to include blends will always result in lower efficiencies and higher cost.

 

Ducati lost a class action lawsuit due to the ethanol deforming their plastic fuel tanks.

http://www.girardgibbs.com/case/22/ducati/

http://www.girardgibbs.com/docs/cases/68_ducati-order-granting-final-settlement-approval.pdf

http://www.topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/lawsuit-news/901-ducati-defective-fuel-tank-class-action

http://deformedfueltanks.com/

 

I just use non-ethanol gas in my BB512i and motorcycles.You should be able to find a station near you: www.pure-gas.org

 

The govt does'nt really care if a million people with classic cars can't get fuel to power their rides.
They are going to continue on the path till all motor fuels have ethanol in them.
Pretty much you got two choices:
1. Update your car so it can run on blended fuels.
2. Put it up on blocks and park it in your living room.
I remember everyone whined and complained about PCV & the elimination of lead in fuel.
And here we are today.
Based on past history, I figure ya got less than 20 years to make the modifications.
And you don't got to be no scientist to figure that out.

 

Its well known- corn ethanol is a hoax. Subsidies to corn growers from us taxpeyers. it has not caused a dent in our fuel imports. The W.H.O. called it a crime against humanity. 40% of corn goes into ethanol conversion. Much of this, of course, goes to fuel vehicles that are gas "hogs", no disrespect to the fellow members here- just a perspective, since were ion the ethanol subject.

 

The nearest pure-gas station is more than 1 tankful from where I live.

 

Useless website for most people. The EPA determines what type of boutique fuel is used where and the areas that don't require boutique fuel get smaller every year. The best alternative for collector car owner is to buy race fuel by the drum. Just make sure it has no ethanol because some of them do.

 

Probably get worse as some states tried to ease the use of ethanol in gasoline, but was just rejected by the president.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-16/obama-said-to-reject-request-to-ease-corn-based-ethanol-law.html

 

VP Racing C9 or another of their non-oxygenated, unleaded fuels might be an alternative.

C9 for winter or long term storage: http://www.vpracingfuels.com/storagefuels

Their master fuel table with all specs: http://www.vpracingfuels.com/master-fuels-table

Not a cheap solution, but these are not cheap cars.

 

prices are stunning!!

 

Following that...

 

You could probably justify the cost of the C9 as a one time winterizing kind of expense, but yes, running any of their fuels on a daily basis could get expensive.

Still, for the vintage cars that are mainly garage queens and rarely driven, the overall cost of running them on C9 wouldn't be prohibitive and would certainly be cheaper than fixing the damage to the fuel systems that the ethanol laden fuel is doing to them.

In parts of the country where the best "Premium" is only 91 octane and the regular is around 85, some guys with old muscle cars or new turbo 4bangers will mix a 5 gallon jug of C10 in with the pump gas as an octane booster since C10 has an honest octane rating of 100 and is unleaded but unoxygenated. It's a known, reliable product that won't kill catalytic converters or cause crud build up on spark plugs, unlike some of the no name "octane boosters" advertised at discount auto parts stores or gas stations.

 

Thats not an all exclusive list and there are several places in the Atlanta are that sell non-ethanol gas that are not on the pure-gas list. And, most marinas sell non-ethanol gas as well.

 

Well, Humbug county anyway.

There is one company in the county that sells 91 octane, non-alcoholic gas, but you have to sign an oath in blood that it will never see use on the highways and

It costs about $5.25 a gallon vrsus the 409 for premium (alcohol defiled) gas.

For a car that gets 16 mpg on a good day, that is a lot of trips to the dealer with gas cans.

Plus, the old alcohol crap just ate up the carburetor on my generator, wiped out the accelerator pump diaphrams on my webers and is probably responsible for global warming, hyper tension AND acne

grumble, grumble,
chris