Why you should not write off MB-AMG Petronas

The key word is "Design" process.

Not preparing or tuning.
Design.

Does Vettel go to Newey and ask him how the first turn should be taken ?
Vice versa works the same way.

 

With due respect... really???

In the only measurable way, results, they DID go backwards.... each and every year! That you don't believe this- is indicative of deep denial.

Ross Brawn, Norbert Haug, Nico Rosberg, Micheal Schumacher, Niki Lauda and just about every credable source that covers F1- agrees that Mercs first 3 years have fallen short of expectations. There is no credible source or evidence to support what you believe - that they got out of W03 what they wanted.

And my biggest fear of all is that they'll stumble upon 1 lucky year someday and all the hardcore fans will come back and say "See... I told you so!"

I'll bet you a case of your favorite beer shipped to you- that next year Merc will not attain their long stated goal of beating their 1st years 4th place finish. I don't believe this team will finish 3rd or better and I'll put money on it.... you?

 

+1

Another +1

For sure, you need a jockey that can provide "good" feedback. The telemetry tells a tale, but there's still a carbon based life form in control, and their asses remain the ultimate arbiter.....

+1 Official request heading to the mods shortly.

Cheers,
Ian

 

True and a real bummer since you're the only one holding up the MB flag.

Pretty much everybody else agrees that they suck and will continue to suck and Lewis will not score much points and glory next year.

No bets to be derived from such unanimous consent.

Darn, I'm already missing MS and his reliable fan club.

This is all your fault, FerrariPilot: Apparently you're not convincing the unwashed masses here that next year will be THE year for MB. We need some cool technical drawings from W04. Get to work man, use your Brackley hotline and turn these Tifosi into Silver Arrows believers. Then I'll have somebody to make a bet with.

 

I have to ask - how will the corporate suits at M-B impede Brawn's freedom? If the F1 team has a sizable budget - which we all know they do - why would the suits have any impact on the F1 team? you have said this repeatedly, but with no real facts/reasons behind it.
Using the argument that they are the same as Honda/Toyota/Jaguar isn't equal in this regards.
Toyota and Jaguar tried to buy into becoming part of F1 history; not a long-term commitment; Honda was close, and they realize they shouldn't have bailed, based on a lot of their posturing.

Kevin

 

It's all about corporate culture, the range of decision making power the team principal has and the length of communication channels. Whether he can make his own calls or whether everything has to be approved by committee. Big corporations don't allow for quick decisions.

That's why I said, that the folks in Brackley might actually succeed if they were left with a pot of gold and all tethers to Stuttgart cut. But that's not how big businesses operate.

Barton pointed it out nicely in his post with MS spying on Lauda, Lauda spying on Brawn, Brawn spying on Haug etc. You can see the negative influence of a big corporation's structure and culture in this layout where you have all these heads keeping each other in check and reporting back to HQ. Sounds more like Washington DC than the command post of former Brawn GT.

My theory is merely trying to explain what the facts already have proven for decades: Big car manufacturers struggle when trying to run an entire F1 team. Obviously there is a reason for that.

And in the case of MB it is particularly poignant since all MB has achieved so far is totally dismantle a dominating and WDC and WCC winning team and turn it into a midfield team.

 

Damn that Mercedes! It's all their fault. If only they left the Brawn team alone. Jensen would have been a 4xWDC by now...

 

You can be smug all you want but that won't change the facts. Brawn turned the nobody team Benetton into a WDC team. He did the same with Ferrari ending their 20+ years drought. Then he did once again with a team he bought for a buck because they had nothing, not even an engine. In December. And made them the dominant force.

Then a giant corporation takes over and the same team becomes an anonymous also-run.

Still thinking this is just coincidence?

MB will never build a WDC winner. Happy to bet on that.

 

A couple of things to keep in mind:

First, the car was dominant because of a clever loophole involving the diffuser. Without that the car was good but not a world beater.

Second, Brawn downsized the team well before Mercedes took over. They needed to staff it back up and then some to consistently challenge the top 3.

Mercedes didn't take the equivalent of Reb Bull and suddenly turn it to crap. Having said that, I was a bit annoyed that they didn't do better this year. It's my belief that they'll be significantly better next year, having had more time for the new staff to gel. If they don't at least finish 3rd in the WCC in 2013 then I might start believing you.

And before you ask, no that's not an offer for yet another bet!

 

They had an adequate driver in Schumacher (even though past his prime and not allowed to test like the old days). MB simply wasn't in the top echelon. Hamilton alone can't put them there, either.

 

Button's fluke WDC is owed in great part to that diffuser. That was no world beating otherwise.

 

You hit on an interesting tangent.

If Nico keeps up with Lewis, considering we know how fast Lewis is, that says a LOT about Schumi, no?

If Nico gets blown away, well, 2012 wasn't great for them, but look at the relative performance between Alonso and Massa? A bad driver can make a good car perform like a pig. What if the Benz was actually a decent car in 2012 but Nico and MS couldn't work it? In that case, it could be a real performer in 2013.

Either way, one thing is for sure... Lewis is no slouch, so whatever he does with the car in 2012 will be as much as the car is capable of. So if it comes up short, it's an MB problem, not a driver problem.

Personally, I think Nico will be pretty close to Lewis. He'll lose, but not by a ton.

 

I do admire your faith in logic.

I on the other hand expect that whatever happens there will be those quick with explainations.
Explainations of how the facts really confirm their biases no matter how it may seem otherwise.



The above does no apply to anyone in particular. Particularly those who agree with me.

 

Everyone knows Lewis is extremely fast and can be a threat almost no matter what happens to him provided he has a good car. This will be the ultimate test for Nico. I think Nico will keep up with Lewis about as well as Button. There isn't a gulf between the top 6-8 drivers. Any of this group is capable of being WDC with the right circumstances. Just look at Button.

 

If he keeps up with Lewis it does say that Rosberg is one of the fastest, which I truly don't believe he is.

But let's assume he will keep up with Lewis (and by keeping up I mean ending up with a similar amount of points give or take a few). What would that say about MS?

Good question. Nico beat MS for two years in a row, so it would mean that MS no longer had the speed of the top group.

But this year, particularly in the second half MS was about head to head with Nico, often actually beating him during the races. OTOH Nico beat him in the first half of the season even when MS' car didn't break down. But overall their performance was about equal.

So what does that actually mean? Does it mean MS caught up to the top runners or does it mean Nico no longer cared (once he had an untouchable lead in points over MS and a contract for 2013 in the pocket)?

I think it meant that MS got a lot better over these 3 years and came to terms with the new kind of cars/tires. Probably not as fast as the top 3 but not a slouch either.

All that said *IF* Nico keeps up with Hami next year.

PS: *IF* he keeps up with Hami, that would also raise Nico's market value through the roof and I would imagine that he wouldn't stay for too much longer with MB but be snatched up by one of the top 3 teams.

PPS: Most likely Hami vs Nico will end up like Vettel vs Webber. Hami will not destroy Nico in the same way Alonso annihilated Massa, but the difference will be bigger than e.g. Hami vs Button.

 

Did Nico and Lewis race against each other in another series? If they did, how'd they compare then?

 

As far as I know they were karting team mates , and Nico kept him honest coming a close 2nd I think.

I figure Nico will relish the challenge of competing against Lewis, good mates I think or were.

 

oh....is that all. I was hoping it'd be GP2 or something. Karts....big deal. Too far removed to be relevant, I reckon.

 

Yup.

Just look at MS: he was nothing special in lower formulae (not my words but from a book about him). Weber was pretty clever to see the talent. But once in a F1 his talent became instantly obvious.

 

I'll wager a six-pack of your choice that MB won't do better than 4th in either WCC and WDC in 2013.

 

Am getting tempted...maybe heart ruling head here, but am hanging fire until I glean more..