Wolff to replace Haug

Well at least they're not spending Toyota money and getting Toyota results.

Tifoso1 don't kill me

 

You think they're a "low budget" operation?

Seems to me they're spending as much, if not more, than most everyone else right now. I believe they've got as many people as anyone, and are throwing money at the problem.

How long they'll continue to do so is another debate of course.....

Cheers,
Ian

 

The only thing that doesn't bode well, IMO, is that Benz has been unloading shares in the team (to Lauda/Wolff). Foundations for an exit?

 

I honestly hope that will not be the case as I like to see more being added to the F1 community than subtracting. God knows that we have been seeing enough of that in the past decade. I certainly agree with both of you, size of the bank account has no direct correlation to winning in F1. It is however, admirable that they all try to do it by fielding their own team. IMO, this makes Ferrari's accomplishments that much more impressive as they were able to do it through the different F1 eras. Hopefully MB and Brawn proves that they have found a working combination and start to challenge for the titles. I would love to see Ferrari and MB fighting it out next season.

 

It definitely is and I'm all for having more car manufacturers in F1.

I don't even care if they totally suck at it. Heck I loved it when Lambo was in it and their engines barely worked.

What I can't stand are the raraah press conferences and 3 year plans to the title. That is so naive/arrogant/stupid that it ticks me off to no end. For that reason alone I was happy to see the Zeschkes, Brawns, Haugs of this world get lots of egg in their face over the past 3 years. They totally deserved that for making those bogus claims.

 

They've been spending Williams level cash up through this season. Can't say for sure now though.

 

Agreed, that's was definetly a bit much. I think winning winning as Brawn GP and as engine supplier to McLaren has gotten to their heads. I think we will now see how well the engineering staff is put together, and how complete of a driver LH is now that he no longer has the experienced McLaren team to fall back on.

I was under the impression that Williams F1 was somewhat limited financially, I was not aware that they were spending the type of money that you seem to be referring to. Were their budget really up there with Ferrari, McLaren and Mercedes ?

 

Let's face it, the present Mercedes F1 team has absolutely nothing to do with the Mercedes Grand Prix team that brought success to Fangio.

The 54/55 Mercedes Grand Prix team was a department of Daimler-Benz. It was purelly German.

The present Mercedes F1 team is just a a three-pointed star badge on a team that was before called Brawn, then Honda, then BAR and owes its origins to Ken Tyrell selling its entry ticket, if I am right. Bar the name, it is purelly British, down to the last bolt!

 

I agree. Every aspect of F1 racing has evolved so much since its conception that one simply can not just draw comparison from one decade to another. While I appreciate heritage as much as the next person, but I do not think one should live off the family fortune and gloat off their ancestor's glory, some disagrees ......

IIRC, Mercedes took over Brawn GP/Honda-BAR's facilities which is entirely based in England. However, I do not recall if Honda-BAR took over the entire Tyrell team/facility as well or just their places on the F1 grid.

 

If that were true, they might actually win some races.

Their engine is German and more importantly their management is German. Be that Haug (ex), Zeschke or Lauda (ok, Austrian). And those are only the known figure heads. God knows to how many German middle managers the likes of Brawn, Wolff and Lowe have to report to. That's where the team is German and where it looses its agility and competitiveness.

 

Disagree. Mercedes in Stuttgart are massively involved in F1 and they are expanding their German F1 facility so it's an actual facility. Call it a three-pointed approach (yes I meant to say that). So they will have Brackley, Stuttgart, and Brixworth (who also rely on Stuttgart's work product).

 

I see where you're coming from, many companies operate like this. They buy a private enterprise such as a wonderful restaurant from a privateer, turn it into a chain, simplify the product to the masses. Essentially ruin the product but live off the name. There is a counterpoint to this, Disney.

Disney purchased Marvel for a massive sum, everyone was sure Marvel and especially its movies would perish, but quite the opposite happened. Disney spent and spent with the right people to build the product and make movies and now it's flourishing. I believe this is what Mercedes are doing with their F1 team as we can very much tell with their building and expanding efforts that they are not attempting a fly by night operation.

 

To quote Goethe (IIRC):
Die Botschaft hoer ich wohl, allein mir fehlt der Glaube.

 

Not unless you believe the Germans won the second World War and took over Great Britain!:

Mercedes AMG - High Performance Powertrains

From which:

"Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains are based in Brixworth, Northamptonshire at the purpose built Mercedes-Benz Technology Centre. There, a team of over 400 people are responsible for the design, manufacture and testing of Formula 1 racing engines for MERCEDES AMG PETRONAS, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes and Force India F1 teams."


The only time those engines see Germany is when they're at the German Grand Prix!

 

Oh, I didn't know that. Very interesting and I'll take that comment back.

Maybe I'm wrong on this too, but I believe that's a first (or at least very rare situation) that a car manufacturer in F1 actually builds the engine outside its headquarters. I thought that Toyota, BMW, Porsche etc. all built their engines in house ?

 

Haha. I must sound like some zealot

Everything is made in Brixworth, but MB built that facility to what it is today. Since 2005 when MB became the 100% sole owner of the engine facility previously known as Mercedes-Illmor, MB went to work on the facility fundamentally changing the operation. Stuttgart dovetails to their operation which is precisely why the turbo V6 photo the other day and review of said new engine was done by the German fellow who runs the show, Andy Cowell. Andy moved to GB to head the dept in 2012 taking over from the previous German fellow, Thomas Fuhr (who headed it from 06 shortly after MB became 100% owners), who is now back in Germany.

Built in GB but German managed with some Stuttgart development, so does that make it as German as the black forrest (and black forrest cake, mmm) ? I think at least partially.

 

Mercedes took over Ilmor in the UK and our company used to do business with Ilmor so I did have some insider knowledge on that one!

I believe Porsche and BMW build their engines at their headquarters.

With Toyota, it depends on how you're defining the companies headquarters. The Engines came from their Cologne motorsport base in Germany, but technically, Toyota's headquarters are in Toyota, Aichi, Japan.

I also believe that the Renault engines are designed by Renault but built by Mecachrome in France.
(We have dealings with Mecachrome and they can be a right pain in the a:censored:e!)

 

Rolls Royce cars are owned and developed by BMW, using 7 series components, still doesn't make them German though!

During the Barnard years, Ferrari's were designed and developed in the UK, didn't make the cars British though!

Stuttgart does not supply any parts for the engine, they don't assemble any part of the engine, it's all done in the UK, therefore, it's a UK engine!

(And this is part of the travesty of Red Bull - the car is assembled in England, the team is based in England, most of the Mechanics are English [or from the UK], and yet, because the company is registered in Austria, they play the Austrian national anthem for the constructors when they win, even though the car has never seen Austria!)

 

WRONG!
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQR6gjG08lo]F1 2012 - Vettel Third Title demo in Graz & Red Bull Ring - YouTube[/ame]

 

Has that always been the case with Toyota ? For some reason, I seem to recall either reading or hearing that the engine was build in Japan and it is just the car that is build in Cologne, which some believed to have contributed to their problem.

 

That's what I heard too.

 

In fairness, they're not the only ones doing this though;

Mercedes; German, despite, as you so succinctly put it, only ever seeing Germany during their GP. Brackley, England

Force India; India. Silverstone, England

Caterham; Malaysia. Leafield, England

Marussia; Russia. Banbury, England

Many others have come & gone over the years. There's no question that the best and brightest are based in the UK when it comes to F1. [Ferrari being the exception that proves the rule of course.] Further evidence surfaces if you examine the "approved suppliers" list for various pieces of kit that they must use; Fuel bladders, data loggers, warning systems etc etc are all primarily manufactured in the UK.

Cheers,
Ian

 

Well, there are the World Champions of 2005 and 2006 from La Grande Nation.

And (maybe a tad less glamorous) the Swiss Sauber team.

And let's not forget the team with the strongest carbon fibre: USF1....

 

Racing under a French license. But, the team was (and still is) based out of.........
.
.
.
.
Enstone, England!

And the Italian Torro Rosso. And Spanish HRT (RIP)

I'm not saying you can't be based elsewhere, just that you're making life unnecessarily difficult for yourself in the majority of cases.

Did they ever even get a tub made?

Cheers,
Ian

 

But where did the engines come from? Weren't they from a Renault factory in France?

IIRC that's about all they ever made. A CF tub. Period. And some shiny toasters...

Charlotte - the home of the USF1 team. Where the strongest carbon fibre comes from. According to the guy whom you probably give more credit than he deserves.