Please diagnose my clutch problem | FerrariChat

Please diagnose my clutch problem

Discussion in '360/430' started by daflk, Mar 1, 2013.

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  1. daflk

    daflk Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2013
    257
    Hong Kong
    Hi, I have just taken delivery of a Ferrari 360 Spider 2002 with assembly no. 46226 and VIN no. 129035 for two weeks and noticed problems with clutch engagement on take off.

    In stop and go traffic, or from stop, it takes a while for the clutch to engage (more than a few car lengths, and continously slips the clutch below 3000 RPM. I'm not sure if this is due to my TCU software being old and outdated (is it, based on my assembly / VIN no.?), or if there's something wrong with the transmission. The clutch appears to engage fine if I apply a lot of pedal force, but just really bad in stop and go traffic. The car feels heavy, and continiously slips the clutch at relatively slow (but not crawlingly slow speeds of 30km/h) uphill and has great difficulty in stop / go traffic uphill even in 1st gear.

    If it helps, this problem seems to be less dire when starting cold than after warming up, the car feels lighter and engages clutch quicker. I'm not sure exactly what was changed in the last clutch job, but could this be a clutch sensor or worn out throw-out bearings / seals issue?

    I've had my mechanic try to adjust the PIS settings and he said he tried setting it lower and it caused the car to lurk and become jerky so he set it back; he recommended that I save money for now and burn out the clutch (its apparently 90% new, though SD2 readings can be inaccurate) before spending the labor to take it apart.

    Any views / suggestions? Is it simply a symptom of an OLD tcu software (which I can fix with Formula Dynamics upgrade or upgrading TCU?), or something more sinister and can only be diagnosed by taking the transmission out (like my mechanic suggested)?

    Thanks..
     
  2. ar4me

    ar4me F1 Rookie
    Owner

    Apr 4, 2010
    3,114
    Southern California
    Full Name:
    Jes
    If the SD2 is correct and it has 90% left I would NOT "burn it out". Why would you do that? Instead I would take it to someone who can diagnose and fix it. You would have to do that eventually anyway, unless you are certain that it is the clutch itself that is the problem.
    Jes
     
  3. daflk

    daflk Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2013
    257
    Hong Kong
    point taken on not waiting for the clutch to wear out, but does this sound normal to you as someone using an old TCU, or is this a bigger problem, if so does anyone know what this could be based on the situation? Thanks.

    I've driven other 360s (albiet newer model years) and the clutch engages almost instanteously at 1500rpm and 1-2 car lengths without stutter. When they drove my car they said something was wrong, but maybe its because they don't know how the old tcu software behaves?
     
  4. chenglo1

    chenglo1 Formula Junior

    Jun 23, 2012
    343
    Midwest
    Full Name:
    Cheng
    i can't help you but can honestly say that there's no way i would put up with my ferrair behaving in that manner. you have to do yourself and the car a favor and get it properly fixed by someone who knows their 360's. i could be a sign of bigger things to come so i would not wait until the clutch is gone. Best of luck and look fwd to reading about the solution!
     
  5. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Jan 28, 2007
    2,509
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    Eddie B
    It's an '02 car with adjustable PIS so software will be fine. Formula dynamics thing won't improve it. If the car had a clutch but the flywheel is worn you get exactly this problem. This is the standard thing you see when people throw a clutch in it to sell it. As the clutch gets hotter. It slips more. This induces more heat still which makes it slip even further, which is why it feels better cold. PIS adjustment in such a situation will do nothing but make the car undrivable. I would also doubt 90% is left on the clutch. If its been driven even a short distance on a bad flywheel face it's likely that only about 1/3 of the clutch is at 90%. The rest will be shot. Check invoices; if there is no evidence of a clutch reface or replacement my money would be on this.....
     
  6. bgmix

    bgmix Formula Junior
    Owner

    Aug 1, 2009
    612
    AZ|NYC|FL
    Full Name:
    Bob Giammarco
    +1 Based on what you've stated here, it seems your mechanic is nowhere near up to the task.
     
  7. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Dec 13, 2009
    16,488
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    Curt
    +2. Take it somewhere else.

    Rifledriver made an interesting comment on one of the other threads about removing the bottom plate and visually inspecting the clutch. It's probably as good as hooking it up to an SD or leonardo machine.. of course.. he has ALOT of experience with these cars.

    I'd almost wonder if its a pressure issue with the actuation mechanism.
    1) Inspect the pump, actuators and lines. Any leaks?
    2) What's the resistance of the pump (weak output = low pressure)
    3) Sticking actuators?
    4) Bleed system. Improper bleed in the past with air in the system causing these issues.

    I haven't seen your car and I'd HOPE your mechanic addressed all these things above before you posted here..
     
  8. DrDon

    DrDon F1 Rookie
    BANNED

    Jul 11, 2012
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    Infractionville
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    Armando Decredenza
    I'd have thought that any of the above would prevent gear selections.

    A slipping clutch is more related to PIS, a clutch with no meat left or a clutch face with contamination.
     
  9. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Jan 28, 2007
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    Eddie B
    Not pressure, pump, actuator.... FLYWHEEL....someone did a cheap-ass clutch job...
     
  10. daflk

    daflk Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2013
    257
    Hong Kong
    newest problem is the car will not go into higher gear under hard acceleration.... but doesn't drop to neutral or anything. is this another flywheel symptom?
     
  11. rustybits

    rustybits F1 Rookie
    Professional Ferrari Technician

    Jan 28, 2007
    2,509
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    Eddie B
    Unfortunately, nobody will be able to tell you 100% what the cause is. My money's on the flywheel, but unless you can post most of the 11 pages of the SD2 parameters report it is difficult to substantiate. I fear your technician is right, removal of the transmission to inspect all the clutch components is required.
     
  12. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
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    Brian Crall
    rustybits is giving you some good information.

    I will add this. None of us has a crystal ball, no one on the internet can fix your car for you and continuing to drive it will not make it better or less expensive to fix.


    You have been told by more than one person to take the car to someone who knows what they are doing to have it fixed. There is no better or more complete advice to give you.
     
  13. crazylumpy

    crazylumpy Rookie

    Sep 3, 2012
    27
    SlC
    Full Name:
    Al
    Is your car a 3 pedal car or F1?
     
  14. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

    Jun 14, 2009
    3,454
    Dublin, Ireland
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    Greg
    #14 FerrariDublin, Mar 7, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
    OMG :D

    Edit: It would be an F1
     
  15. daflk

    daflk Formula Junior

    Jan 27, 2013
    257
    Hong Kong
    Update:

    Took it to the official dealer in HK.

    They said the flywheel, clutch, throw-out bearing are all shot and the seals were leaking a lot of oil in the transmission. Everything was replaced. Basically previous owner changed clutch only and not all the other worn parts. Dealer confirmed to me that although I have a 2002 spider, the previous owner had the TCU upgraded to 2004.

    While the car feels a lot more responsive now and picks up with less pedal effort, the same problem remains, though on a less pronounced scale, which is maintaining the same throttle position / angle, in first gear and from stop, on a light pedal (maybe several centimeters into the throttle), it appears the RPM doesn't progress upwards in a linear fashoin and drops down a bit at around 2-3k RPM before the clutch is fully engaged again and picks up normally.

    Is this normal? The lead mechanic did say this was "normal" for a non-CS TCU but it doesn't at all seem normal to me.

    Could this just be a 2004 software issue, I heard 2004 slips the clutch a little more for "smoothness", but to me its just annoying.

    I was thinking if this could be a throttle position sensor issue, I have weird readings of throttle position from standstill in my ODB2 software for my mobile phone.

    In other news, the dealer found the car to be throwing very intermittent slow down warnings (never more than one second), and replaced the cat sensor. However, I am getting engine check light and fuel smells, so something else is wrong, so back to the dealer.... again.....
     
  16. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Dec 13, 2009
    16,488
    Charleston, SC
    Full Name:
    Curt
    Fuel smells = smell on top of engie compartment trim panel. Whichever side is fuel smelliest, remove that side and have them check the roll over valves or the fuel pump for leakage. There is a depression in the plastic on the pumps that will collect fluid. CEL light on means the fuel system is depressurizing leading to the light. Should be a relatively straightforward repair... Clutch issue still not sure why have the creep forward..
     
  17. F430Rod

    F430Rod Formula Junior

    Feb 17, 2007
    482
    Orange County
    Full Name:
    Rod
    Ideally you would find another 360 owner and meet up and drive each other's cars. Hopefully there is a difference. Then approach the dealer with both. Take the person out for a nice dinner.
     

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