Why not Lotus ?

I thought I'd ask this question over here first to get the Ferrari perspective, then I'll ask it again over on LotusTalk to get the Lotus take.....

I am curious, why do you suppose no Lotuses (I am strictly referring to street cars only) have really retained or dramatically appreciated in value over the years --- such as Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Maseratis, etc. ????

Almost every other sports car make (even British) of the past has seen some period of high value at later times --- A-M, Austin Healey, Jag, MG, etc. Lotus does have a worldwide, significant-numbered base of enthusiastic champions of the marque. So, is it that they are simply not regarded as collectible, or otherwise worthwhile long term ???

What is wrong with the poor, lowly Lotus ???

 

I don't think that's true. The Type 14 Lotus Elite is a sought after classic.

Also, Vintage Lotus race cars are always in demand, such as the Lotus 11, the Lotus 23B, the Lotus 22, and the Lotus 18.

There's a lot more Lotus Vintage race cars available than Ferrari on the market, mainly because they produced cars for lower level events.

If you're referring to cars from the late 70's and 80's, well, few Ferrari's, Lambo's or Maserati's from the 80's have appreciated much either. Most sell pretty close to their original MSRP, or less.

When you talk about a beautiful car, who can argue with this?
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Totally agree with the Elite being highly valued. Among small displacement cars it ranks very high in collectibility and value. It is simply a beautiful car.

 

I think one of the reason that Ferrari, Maserati, and Lamborghini prices tend to be a bit higher is that they built their own unique engines. Lotus modified existing mass production engines (although that never hurt 289 and 427 Cobra's).

Then, there is the current brand interest in the market today. Current Lotus cars aren't in heavy demand so they don't drive interest in classics.

But, I don't think the real enthusiasts care about car values. You care about the car, not what you can sell it for.

 

Lotus never really shook off the kit car image or did anything to protect the exclusivity of the brand, although they are making efforts recently now that their backers have confirmed continuing support. The opening of a Lotus store in Regent St, London, just near the Ferrari store is the kind of image-building they need to do.

This is very different from the 80's where people at Lotus would privately admit that they were only interested in building cars with sufficient quality to get them through the warranty period.

But its not true to say that all Lotuses dont appreciate in value. Elans and Europas have always done so as have the race cars. Elites are sky-high. For an example of a car which has soared in value for no apparent reason look at the Esprit S1. These cars were so poorly regarded at one stage that, here in the UK at least, they were being scrapped while still in running condition as they were almost worthless.

There are specific cars which seem strangely undervalued. I sold a superb Excel a while back for a paltry sum, but the car which seems the most out-of-kilter is the Guigaro Esprit Turbo which are just stupidly low valued. I just cant imagine that these cars will never appreciate but they seem to stubbornly refuse to do so despite being an iconic design. I am sure that will change eventually.

 

I wish they were less appreciated to get them cheaper!

Maybe the Excel, the Eclat and that stuff from the eighties are relatively cheap, but the same goes for the Ferrari Mondial or the Lamborghini Jalpa.

 

Lots of good points made above. One I would definitely second is the engine build. For many enthusiasts, what makes a Ferrari a Ferrari is the engine. Then there are some body panels and a bit of leather wrapped around it, but at its core, a Ferrari has that engine.

Another is the brand placement. Whether or not Enzo intended it to, the Ferrari brand became synonymous with exclusivity, unattainability and all of the cachet that goes with it.

Lotus on the other hand has had some... well... unfortunate engine pairings. The Lotus built ones were arguably the worst, but I have seen some pretty sad Cosworths in them as well. Mine has a Toyota block with a Yamaha engineered head. Fabulous motor right up to 9K
RPM, but it still doesn't sound anything like a Ferrari, more like a hair dryer, a bit (lots) low on low end torque, and sourcing engine blocks from Toyota does little to enhance your cachet as an exotic builder.

For a Lotus enthusiast, the strong ponts have always been handling. Low weight plus OK horsepower plus a nicely balanced chassis makes for a really great drive. Provided of course you are driving it at a pace and in a place that allows you to enjoy it. If you are cruising South Beach on the other hand, skip the tiny, tinny, rattley little car that none of the bikini models recognize, and go for something that looks and sounds sexy.

 

Lotus Elite for sale | Hemmings Motor News

Good Elans are also pricey for well sorted examples. An original 7 is also anything but inexpensive.

 

One other difference to point out, and one I am guilty of as well.

A lot of Ferraristi to tend to think of ownership as sort of duty, acting as a caretaker of the car in order to preserve it in as original a condition as possible - whether that is to preserve resale value or to preserve the history of the marque... Whichever.

Loti tend to look at their cars as, well, their cars. Cars that they can and should treat and modify as they will.

If you tell a Ferrari crowd that you have kept your car religiously original and stock, you will get a lot of smiles and approving nods.

If you tell a Lotus crowd the same thing, you will get a lot of puzzled, quizzical stares. After all, there are so many far better options available these days for toe links, dampers, brakes etc., why on earth would you leave yours stock when it is so easy to make it better?

 

In the end for road cars handling comes second for most people, they want to be scared by power and torque and acceleration ... plus awesome exhaust noises.

Only really serious car enthusiasts understand the beauty of a light great handling car, and this is where Lotus comes in. Great on race track but not a sales point for a road car.

And yes they should have built their own engines ... they could have when the company was going good.
Pete

 

I looked at an 80s Esprit a while ago - considered adding one. Its when you open the door and get inside the real disappointment is reached. The interior looksl like it was made in a home ec class, and not by the top student either. Nothing in there to make you want to stay in there. Compared that to a 3x8 and I have voted with my wallet where I would like to spend time.

 

What version of the 80s did you look at? MY 88-93 Turbo Esprit had a sumptuous interior. Here's Car & Drivers John Phillips review of the Lotus Esprit Turbo S.E. interior;

"And yet there is so much to covet here. The cabins intoxicating leather might gain the approval of even the bovines from which it was snatched. The pedals are perfectly aligned for heel-and-toeing. The seats are more comfortable than those in a Porsche Carrera 4. And the steering is Formula Ford fast and as accurate as Mark McQwire in mid swing."

 

They did. The 907/912 and Turbo Esprit and Esprit V8 engines were all-Lotus engines designed by Tony Rudd.

 

+1

The Turbo Esprit had a fabulous interior.

 

The V8 has a nice interior as well but not quite as nice as a 360 / 430 Although, some of the knobs & switches are a bit on the chintzy side ---- but, hey, at least none of them melt / get sticky when they get warm or exposed to sunlight .

 

Lotus : Other John Player Special | eBay

One more glass of Pinot and I am going to bid on this car...

15K should do it.

 

A 255 Exige cup as a track car, a F430 (with a 458 on order as a street car.)

the Lotus is all about handling, to enjoy it, you have to push it to the limit: that means track.
And the Toyota engine means I don't really care if the engine only lasts a season or so, it's cheap to replace.

The Ferrari combines style, great sound, power, gorgeous interior and cachet: the perfect street car.
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As someone who has purchased a S1 Elan, the answers are very simple:

1) Engine displacement and number of cylinders -- Generally speaking, small displacement four cylinder cars don't perform as well in the collector car marketplace as big bore cars. Obviously, there are exceptions to the rule (OSCA, Porsche...), but when Ferrari road cars were four liter v12s, the Elans were 1600cc fours.

2) Collector prices are based on nostalgia: As I've written many times in many pieces in magazines and newspapers: "you can't be nostalgic about something you never saw." While people saw Ferraris on the pages of R&T every month and Porsches (or Healeys, Jaguars, Corvettes) driving around town and winning on the track all the time, Lotus road cars were generally pretty rare to see outside of an SCCA race. You can't covet what you can't see or what you haven't been told repeatedly to covet! There simply wasn't enough exposure to create a dream car mystique for Lotus cars until The Spy Who Loved Me. Then once the styling and Bond connection wore off, people were left cold about a "supercar" that only had four cylinders, plus it still had...

3) ...HORRIBLE build quality -- When they were new, they were bashed for parts falling off. The Elite's strut towers would shatter. The fiberglass quality on the Elan is awful. The Europa had multiple issues, especially with S1 cars. A family friend had an Esprit S2 that had to be sold back under California's Lemon Law.

At the end of the day, Lotus made niche cars. I love driving the Elan. It is a miracle of engineering. I drove that car with my dad (two 6' 4" 235-plus pound guys) from Seattle to Vancouver and back and was totally comfortable, as opposed to my F-cars (or C5 Corvette) which have ergonomics or seats that begin to feel like torture devices.

Everyone knows what my 328 is, but in the Lotus, people always ask what it is. Even when they know what it is, they remark that they either a) have never seen one outside of a museum or static collection or b) never seen one at all.

Therein lies the issue of value.

 

Engine size was always a big issue for Lotus in the USA market. The marketing people would tell Chapman that he needed a V8 minimum for the US but he would have none of it, saying that the Americans were wrong, and he could overcome the small engine size by "adding lightness". Its true that in Europe the 4-cylinder engines were not really perceived as a negative.
In fact Chapmans obstinacy was part of the problem. He would go into a rant if his engineers made any part stronger and heavier than it needed to be and saw the road cars in the same light as the race cars, ie long term reliability not being an issue. The problems with the early Esprits in the US nearly put Lotus out of business.

 

If they only had used the Ford DFV in milder street version in one of their supercars.

 

Funny thing now is that most car manufacturers are now trying to lighten their cars with aluminium and carbon fibre in order to increase performance without putting a bigger engine in.

European cars have been moving to lighter and more efficient designs for a while now, as nobody in Europe wants big engines to provide power any more.

I guess Chapman was simply too far ahead in his thinking, reliability must be a key factor in a car design though, he should have put this above weight saving.

Another mark would be TVR, similar in many ways to Lotus and a shame when they stopped producing cars.

Neil

 

heres a 1985 turbo esprit interior. If you can find anything fabulous about it, I'd be shocked:





the 93 is better, but its hardly a fantastic interior. bunch of awkward hard edges

Lotus : Esprit SE in Lotus | eBay Motors

 

I agree with Pete. I think Lotus is too subtle for most car consumers' palates.

 

That reminds me of my Friends S2 interior, headliner was supported by my head and everything around look'd and felt like it was made by me when I was 11.

 

I've had a 94 S4 for three years now and the car has be reliable and fun to use. I've had my 308 for 12 years and its funny how the two are so different. Not just performance, but general feel.
The esprit is far rarer than many ferrari models, but it does lack some sort of "it factor" that's hard to describe even to me who has been around exotics for a while.
As a company, I think they got a little lost in their brand somewhere along the way with the littler cars, Toyota engines, etc. I think their lack of total commitment to the higher end of the performance market is what clouds the water.
The S4 is a great road car