Paddle shifted gearboxes

I owned a DSG-equipped Audi TT, and recently drove a Boxster S with PDK.

I have not driven an F1-equipped 355, but both the Audi and Porsche gearboxes blew away the 360 F1 in speed and smoothness. The 360 box literally 'thunked' into gear. I can see why people in the used car market put a premium on manual-equiped cars.

I haven't driven the 458, so it's possible Ferrari has caught up the Germans on this.

 

You should try the DCT in a 2012 458 coupe. That box is has to be the best possible set up for an F1 style transmission ever made. On this one, they got it seriously right -- amazing shifts and zero power loss with total control but plenty of drama. It must be the best on the market now.

 

The 355 has a cable operated throttle and requires you to do the rev matching yourself while the others are generally drive by wire and need a little time to rev match, at least on upshifts. Downshifts shouldn't be delayed too much, but that's generally the reason for delayed upshifts compared to the 355.

 

I agree with you, the 'shift time' should be from the time your hand hits the paddle, and include any software/hardware lag as well as the gear change itself!!

 

I'm having a 2013 TT delivered next month and will re-test with this in mind, but I recall my '08 with the DSG box changing gears instantaneously and with the barest touch of the paddle.

 

I am a died-in-the-wool manual transmission guy. I love the feeling of complete control and being mechanically connected to what the car is doing. I love popping off a perfect heel-and-toe downshift or having to "double de-clutch" in one of my old non-synchro British cars. My paddle shift experience is limited to test drives in an older MR2 Spyder back when they first came out, and more recently a California, Panamera Turbo S, and just the other day a 2013 Boxter S.

The MR2 transmission was beyond worthless for the very reason you describe, plus incredibly S-L-O-W actual shift times.

The Panamera PDK box seemed to have a tiny bit of the lag you describe, but was seamless in auto mode. I still felt a bit disconnected from the car. I liked it ok, except at crawl speeds and taking off from a stop it was fairly jerky and shuddered a bit, especially when turning at the same time. Maybe I drove a bad example (was a demo car), but that alone would have made me not purchase it. Felt like something was about to break.

The California was much better in every regard. Quick, crisp shifts. Good at crawl speeds, seamless in auto. Thinking back, I think it did have a tiny bit of lag from the time of paddle initiation. For whatever reason, I still did not feel 100% mechanically connected to the car, maybe 90% connected if that makes sense. Overall it made it feel a bit less of a sports car and more like a "normal" car. I left the test drive thinking how much more I would probably enjoy a manual transmission in a California.

All that said, the Boxter S I drove the other day was a revelation. It was the first paddle transmission I actually LIKED, and would consider buying vs. a manual version of the same car. I did not notice any perceptible lag when pulling the paddle. Upshifts were fast and crisp, downshifts had the most perfect rev match that felt and especially sounded great. Very loud and noticeable. Other paddle cars I felt matched downshifts with a mix of revs and clutch slip, the Boxter revs hard and fast and makes the best popping and growling noises when it does it. Popping up and down through the gears was actually fun thanks to the great soundtrack and the more direct, mechanical FEEL. I finally felt connected to the car.

 

FWIW it doesn't sound like people are sold on paddle shifts for the long term? Any manufacturers offering a stick shift will still fill a niche. Not unless they all get away from it you'll see a resurgence later on in the stick.

 

I hope that you are right but sadly the video game generation may not feel the same way.

 

Are you joking?

Even the new Porsche 911 GT3 has no stick shift anymore.

 

What he said.

I think stick shifts will end up relegated to fun toys like the Mazda MX5, where performance isn't the ultimate focus.

I can't see someone paying $200K for a Porsche and selecting an option to make it slower.

 

But is the choice of cars always about the last tenth of all-out speed? Or is about the way a car FEELS? If a bland-feeling test number generator was what everyone wanted, the Nissan GTR would have put a huge dent in 911 and exotic sales by now.

Now, if they can make a paddle shift feel good and still be faster, then it's a win-win.

 

There seems to be a lot of people disappointed in the GT3 available only in PDK? It's the manufacturers that are dictating paddle shifting and making a stick obsolete.

 

Ok, you know I love you Jon, so I am going to ask what you mean by this? Do you mean that the guy who buys the 200k Porsche won't want a manual or that that guy is all about paying for the speed?

I say this because I can easily imagine paying 200k for any car and still wanting a manual. I am scared they will all go away.

MB

 

There are good paddle shifters and not so good ones. People who complain I am sure have not tried the later 458's. Ferrari showed how it should be done. Fast, fun, and addictive.

The f430 is also a lot of fun.

 

Both and what difference does it make? People don't choose them enough anymore to justify them.

Don't blame the manufactures-- blame the buying public. The manufacturers just make what people want.

 

I do blame the buying public, that is exactly my point. Bunch of lazy bastards.

MB

 

I am a stickman, But my introduction to the earliest F1 in a roadcar can't help but make you see the light. Could you imagine an Formula 1 racing car with a manual gearbox today?

You would be looked upon as the Austin Powers of the grid.

YEAHH BABY!!!

 

Maybe they just like something you don't --- and you don't like being told so?

 

If you consider the buying public to be wise, you and I definitely disagree.

And speaking of liking different things I have a BMW, a Ferrari, a 1949 Caddy and Ford Truck for work so trust me, variety is the spice of life. My point is that not supplying the public an option as a sportscar company is sad.

MB

 

Fixed it for ya.

 

dual clutch tranmissions having delays or being "slow" ... to what ? ... even the early ones are faster than anyone can shift a std stick... they, however, are much slower than the mind, the mind is about expectations, anticipation and perception... once the decision to actuate the paddle is made, the mind is hanging around wondering what is taking so long for a shift to happen... it's not that the transmission is having a delay, it's that the mind is much faster

 

The problem with having a manual and a paddle transmission is extremely costly. For them to give the option was possible with a single clutch version because they could just be swapped so the electronics took control and shifted using pneumatics or whatever electronic system was deployed. The dual clutch system cannot be hooked to a shifter because there are two parallel sets of gears r-2-4-6 and 1-3-5-7. It allows also for a more compact gearbox that can better fit engine bays. The electronics will time and slow down the shift if the computers feel necessary to preserve life or avoid damage. There is nothing quite like a manual where you have the control in your hand its exhilarating but it will get to the point where paddles are just as much fun I believe. Instant response will be possible and I mean instant eventually, it just takes time and computer programming. There are gearbox's such as the KAPS full sequential with paddle shifting mechanism which provides 50ms shifts and slams the car into gear. http://www.racebreed.fi/blog/uploaded_images/Sequential_Gearbox_Internals-KAPS-718622.jpg
Here is the problem though. They are straight cut gears which are loud and brutal, its possible to abuse this system because its designed for it but the normal person doesn't want a car that destroys them in fifty miles of driving. In all reality driving a race car on the street would be exhausting, painful, and deafening. So in reality its all a compromise that is trying to spare the occupants. They use normal helical gears so its not deafening and the electronics make the changes supple and nice to the touch. No one wants to feel like electronics are more in control than the driver but they must be there to aid in controlling the vehicle.

 

the lack of std transmissions being offered has nothing to do with the intelligence of the buying public, it is more about demand and the economy of scale. The manufacturers are NOT selling the std transmissions... they need to buy ( manufacturer ) transmissions in quantity. Transmissions can be very perishable as fast as technology is moving forward and the car manufacturers don't need a 50 year supply sitting on a shelf waiting for someone to order one. The buying public is voting with their money. One can always get a std transmission, in the aftermarket, but not at a mainstream price point from the manufacturer. Those lamenting the most about not having a stick are also the ones most unwilling to pay a premium to get what they want. Isn't that what we have been hearing about the automatic transmissions for years.