ANOTHER customer lost

True, as Ferrari is producing a helluva lot more cars per year than they ever used to.

 

A lot more places to put your money today and actually get a return instead of depriciation.

 

Concur with everything you state

 

Just had a conversation with Jeff yesterday at CAS. He told me that he has 21 F 12 's sold and in the pipeline so far this year. Apparently the F 12 is going to be a huge hit for Ferrari and its dealers CAS gets their first one for one of their customers in a couple of days.

 

Don't doubt it, Pete, but you and I both know from painful experience what happens to V12 hysteria after the first 18 months or so.

 

I think the article is a puff piece by Mclaren. Originally they were going to do 500 cars now they are limiting it to "375" . 250 )have been sold to the west and they claim not to have marketed in Asia yet. If they could sell 500 why wouldn't they, it's not like its more than Ferrari procures of the la Ferrari.

Btw I know of one dealer in the uk who has been offered 4 la Ferrari from contract holders.
This is a speculation driven business. I think both manufacturers would love to sell to real enthusiasts.

As to the Ferrari dealer thing. It's true that during the time of the 360 430 you had to buy a lesser car to get a new Ferrari as all the new ones went to stockbroker flippers who the reold to the dealers6 months later. I think incalculable damage was done to the Ferrari brand then.
This change in owner profile, its resultant negative stigma and the dumbing down of the cars is why I wouldn't buy a new one.

Frankly the Mclaren mp12 is a more interesting and tasteful choice for the same money as a 458. I didn't think either was actually that entertaining to drive on the street, being at cars with ps. Sacrilege as it sounds these days a vette c7 or a viper looks a more interesting drive for those who actually like to drive as opposed to pose.

I am sure Ferrari will return to making great drivers cars, but the current crop is not it. The dealers are much better now, you can actually just order a car and wait 6 months to buy at list. But I for one do not forget

What went on before is just like a resteraunt that makes you wait and then gives you a ****ty table because its an in place. I wouldn't really eat there again unless they treated me so much better and the food was something I couldn't get elsewhere. The star fades an in places become out. A good place has staying power and a long list of repeat customers who value the food and ambiance.


On cars these days Ferrari has lots of valid competition, Mclaren, Audi maybe porche, Lamborghini. They are all good exclusive and exotic, then there is off the rack stuff from vette to GTr which objectively do the numbers.

Ferrari has reduced itself to fashion accessory. Serious drivers need not necessarily apply. Remember when it was the ultimate street car, very few poseurs, and realistically you had to know what you were doing, that is when th mystique and cred was built.

They are a successful business, but like porche hollowing out their core. I for one don't see a
Product they make that is so compelling that I can't get the same or better elsewhere, and their treatment of customers leaves many with no desire to return.

 

Funny because the current range of cars has received praises all around the world. I guess if your daily driver is a 250LM you could say a 458 is not driver car..

 

Boxerman: I heard the exact same "fashion accessory" BS in 1982 about the 308 and the doctors and lawyers who bought these 8 cylinder "Fiats".

Give it a rest. Insulting most of us is not the answer to your problem.

If you want to see seriously who are the fashion accessory people, look at classic owners who spend hundreds of thousands if not millions to have their car sit in a garage and then trailer them to car shows

 

How many tracked 458's do you see.
If I want a Ferrari I am not looking for a daily, perhaps that is the problem, the 458 is a perfect,y useable daily as a Hyundai, And just as unexciting and rewarding below the limit.

I take my feet and a train to work. For going here and there on weekends in good weather and no traffic I do use my boxer so maybe that qualifies as my daily. If I need a car for traffic/snow/mall parking lots I use an SUV.

When I drive for fun the car should be fun to drive, mostly a 458 looks stunning, is either too quiet of with baffles open too loud and not fun or engaging until at the limit which is not doable on the street. It's like all the new ferraris a pose car. Yes it's fast on the track, but so is a GTr.

The late gt3 I think received far more praise in the press than the458as a drivers car. I tried a 458 it left me underwhelmed, I like my cars to be more engaging, an extension of my body, interactive, less artificial. But yes the raw numbers looks and sound are great.

 

I agree with you about most classic owners. That is why I am all for tool room copy recreations. The real thing more affordable so you can drive the wheels off it as intended.

Osay what you will, most 458 owners wouldn't have a clue about driving. They buy these cars as status symbol toys like Rolex watches. Pretend wannabe drivers. It works because the modern Ferrari is a easy to drive as a Chevy. The sales lead to profit to develop new products which is good. Sadly in catering to this market the product interaction has suffered and dealers have alienated a core constituency. But as long as the sales are there does it matter.
Ferrari is becoming just another modern porche. No biggie if that is your thing.

If you feel I am being insulting then perhaps what I say has a ring of truth to it. Doesn't mean there are not a few Drivers of 458's just not most, and the dealer experience of many reflects that. There is a reason that Leno who is a drivers driver won't go near Ferrari, and its directly related to the buying experience and image of the product, cool as the cars may be.

 

I have been thru that with the 599 and I think the F12 will be the same

 

There's no truth in it at all. I've owned classic and I've owned the latest. They all have their pluses and minuses. OK, they are not YOUR cup of tea. Well, your cup of tea is living in 1978. Guess what: too bad. The world has moved forward. I hope you like listening to Abba a lot.

In the 60's who were most of Ferrari's clients? Racers? No... the rich and Hollywood elites. The 250 California is a boulevard cruiser dreamed up to satisfy this market.

As to this mythical "Jay Leno" excuse we hear all the time: Ef Jay Leno. He loves Lambos (always has). Everyone has their own thing. More power to him. Besides, Lambo's today aren't fashion accessories by your definition?

I'm so freakin' tired of people here being so sanctimonious that they think they are the pure definition of what is and isn't a good car.

Screw that. We all have our own opinions and frankly, you're in the minority but don't realize it.

Saying owners of modern cars are just silly men with money and no ability to drive well is not only insulting to most here, it shows a level of ego that might need to looked in the mirror once and a while.

 

cant through any stones

 

Find me a thread where I said anyone who owns this kind of car or that kind of car is sissy boy, idiot, or doesn't know how to drive.

Show me a thread or post where I have told anyone to do anything other that what they feel is best for them.

Please.... I'll give you a few months.

 

The comment was not a response to you. People should buy what they enjoy.

 

Exactly.

And, they do.

 

Im in Minnesota and its cold,windy,overcast with copious sand and salt on the roads. At this time Im a poseur and enjoy a great piece of garage art. Hopefully in 2 weeks I can change my status.

 

Actually i see a lot of 458 tracked. Mostly in Europe though but the US customer has always been more of a shower than a goer so it has been true for as long as i have been going to the track (When the 355 was the car).
Obviously it will always be a minority compared to the total of 458/430/360/355 but that is also true for the 911/GTR/Gallardo/Mclarens/etc. I am not sure how long you drove the 458 but i felt like driving a mini Enzo. It is in my eyes the perfect car as it does everything you want. Easy to drive when you want but when you push it, you really need to focus as the speed comes very fast and the steering is so direct. That's exciting to me. Sure there is no manual gearbox so but i do feel connected to the car.

People have been saying this for as long as i remember. It is unfortunately the hidden face of progress. Cars are easy to drive nowadays. Even a GT3 RS can be a DD if you dont mind the sound of the clutch when it's depressed. And it's also "boring" when driving 40 mph..
Hell, even the Enzo is useable daily if you dont mind the cost. It's that easy to drive in stop and go traffic..The upside is that you can drive these cars for longer, go to the track where they really make sense and come back without smelling like oil or needing a massage.

I daily my 997 and while it is 'boring' in traffic, i have my daily dose of fun as soon as the road opens and becomes curvy.

 

This has always been the case. If it wasnt, then you wouldnt find so many Boxers with low mileage. Most boxers should have close to 150k miles if they were bought by drivers and not posers who take the car on a dry sunday to go park it in front of the nice restaurant and come home putting a grand total of 40 miles per month..
They have always attracted the look at me crowd because they have always been expensive.

 

I have a DD.....But I sure wouldn't confuse my 2004 Porsche Cayenne with my 599 GTO. I track my GTO which provides an experience that is as raw and personal as you can get from a road car and I can certainly tell the difference between the two.

 

Yes well a 599 GTO is a serious beast, no question.

 

Well if you're so insulted maybe what I say has more than a ring of truth to it. In any event I never said that all owners of the moderns were poseurs, just that most were and I stand by that because its true. As someone here pointed out that may always have been e case, but its certainly worse now because the bandwidth of who can drive these cars is so much wider.

This thread talks about the bad dealer experience, this is driven by a group of weathy poseur speculators who gotta have the latest distorting the buying and owning experience. A more hard core car would not be of appeal to this crowd. In that sense the prior GT3 was self limiting in terms of who could or would buy it.

As to paddle shift it has undoubtably widened the audience, and in shanghai where I am now why would you have anything else, maybe the same is true in Vegas.

If you go over to rennlist which is the porche site you will hear more than a little gnashing of teeth over the shift to PDF only amongst the hard core track crowd.
I will also note that the two latest production car track records at willow spring are held by a vette zr1 and a viper, both are stick.

There is also a video with Randy Probst commenting that maybe a paddle makes a race car faster but that street cars even on the track are so much more fun and interactive with a manual.

What I object to is this new religion being forced on us that paddle shift is the future and the only way to go. Firstly in most hands its not necessarily faster on a track in a DE at all. Secondly each layer of isolation removes part of the pleasure in operating the machine.

Today an Amgen merc or m3 is already hugely fast, what makes a sports car is the whole interaction with the machine. If life were all objective stats we would all wear digital watches, not swiss mechanical ones.

In fact I can't think of a car publication where the writer has said they prefer paddles over a stick.

As to being in the minority, so what. Does that mean I should suffer the tyranny of a majority.
Fact is if you're into sports cars then you are in a minority already, as we all are.
I don't think I am in a insignificant minority and I think Ferrari and porche ignore the core minority who gives their other products credibility at their peril.

As you said we all have choices, all I want is the choice. I am not offered the choice not because too few would opt for it, but because its cheaper not to offer a choice, and pr is trying to convince that this choice is obsolete.

A flappy paddle computer car may be the latest and greatest, but like all electronic nicknaks its quickly overshadowed by the next greatest and worthless. I like things that stand the test of time and are keepers. Maybe it's my personality and maybe I can't afford to take a 100k hit on depreciation to get the latest every two years. Or maybe I prefer to keep adding more cars so would rather spend the depreciation on adding to the small collection I have.

One thing I know, a fine watch you keep for life, and is always interesting. A quartz watch keeps bettertime and is replaced with the battery.

The older ferraris are keepers, the newer ones are disposable goods, we just choose different values for what we want in a car.

I do think that the aventador even with flappy paddles has a sense of drama and specialness that the newer ferraris lack, even though objectively the Ferrari may be better.

I can't personally think of a new Ferrari or porche that I would be so inspired asto push myself to own, they just don't inspire as they used to. But then I don't sell what I get, so to me they have to be things worthwhile to keep.

Rowan Atkinson always says of his Maclaren F1 that you can spend a lifetime learning all the car can do, growing into its abilities, that it will always reward and excite. Sorry but I don't think that applies to a 458 or PDK porche 991.

 

Well, please tell every Enzo, CS, Scud, and 16 M owner the gearbox in their car is just a computerized gimmick and that they bought them to be used like expensive jewelry to show off to their buddies.

I think they might have a different opinion.

 

Good points, perhaps I need track experience in a 458to appreciate it, but that is the point, it can only really be appreciated all out. I never found the gt3 boring at slower speeds, its steering and control finesse were their own rewards. Ease of use need not negate interaction and enjoyment at lower speeds, but today it does.

And yes the US customer is more than a shower than a goer, on the other hand it is the USA that got BMW to put the stick back in the m series. The porches are a great example of opportunistic feeders, like m cars they can happily and easily poodle in traffic, but grab a corner here or there.

Thing is for my 200k-400k I want a more focused experience. While I may be a minority here its not an insignificant minority.

There is a reason why older cars are revered, because they are so interactive. I think moderns should have the same interaction with better performance and reliability. Moderns to me are offering more of everything but less interaction. At what point are you driving a mobile video game.

In any event if you read the latest musings by Ferrari they state that they are trying to build interaction back into their cars so they are fun and rewarding to drive at 70 as well as 170.