Bosch CDi ignition box repair

I have a couple of Ghibli Bosch CDi Ignition boxes that need repair. Have someone found a person that will repair these units? These ignition boxes do not have many components.

I am aware that Perma Tune makes a replacement box but I am looking to fix my originals.

Ivan
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I remember hearing (15 years ago now) about a company that would put a complete new system inside your old box.

The other possibility is to convert the dizzy to Pertronix and just clean up the old box to leave in place as a dummy?

 

Yes, I know but the original box appears to have less than $20 worth of components. There has to be someone with some electronic know how that can locate and replace the faulty components. There are no sophisticated IC circuits in here ... just some plain old capacitors, diodes and transistors.

Ivan

 

Try these guys

Becker Autosound Website
They work on old radio's. They are familiar with resistors and transistors.

 

True but then it's still an ancient design. There must have been a reason Maserati had a bypass feature?

 

Those guys aren't all that far away from me!

 

Bosch was also original equipment for Porsche at this time...I would suggest the web pages here for some info on troubleshooting the systems and/or check out their Forum for contact info, from members...

Pelican Parts - 911 Technical Articles

1- Porsche Technical Forums - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

 

There's certainly not much in the circuit, but in electronics, 40 years is a geological age. My products are much newer than that, but I've still had to redesign some of them three times just due to parts going obsolete.

I see that salz63 beat me to the punch on the Pelican link. That thread was started years ago, but even then the main problem seemed to be parts obsolescence, especially of the thyristor. However, the first substitute mentioned in the posts is still available at Mouser (IRC 16RIA80). The transformer is unique, but the schematic gives the number of turns for the three windings, so it should be repairable by hand if it's been shorted. The passives would look different today, but should still be available. The PCB can be recreated if necessary. Of course, as Bob says, you can gut the box and stick more modern and much cheaper electronics in it. We did that for the old Sun tach boxes that used now-unavailable mercury batteries to get a stable supply voltage.

On a more general note, now that the definition of collector car includes some with electronics, what will the attitude be about restoration? I've read about the troubles QP3 owners have fixing TEDEL boxes (and nearly choked when I saw the cost). After 40 years of the stuff, I'm not very sentimental about electronics, but I know some people here go to great lengths to get the right weave for the carpet binding, so how will such folks feel about changing the internals of electronics boxes?

 

If it is neatly tucked inside the original "packaging" AND you don't need to modify the hook-ups/connections to make it work, it is "original" to me, for whatever it's worth. I know, it's not 100% "original" but it is an upgrade that would go unnoticed.

 

Ivan you always come up with interesting things on these cars. I don't know anything about electronics. But it seems that someone knowledgeable should be able to look up the existing component functions, study the connections and devise some suitable functional equivalent to fit inside the original box.

Good luck with it and keep us posted on your progress.

 

Here's the thing. For the late Bosch boxes used on Khamsins , late Boras and the QPIII it's the same as the one used on a Porsche 928. The dizzies used with those boxes were magnetic impulse generated so I could see keeping that intact. Besides it works well. But the earlier ignition boxes are still using points with a bypass option in case the box fails and for my money I'd just put a $70-$100 Pertronix kit in it. You can't see it's there unless you're a real eagle eye and then just leave the box as a pretty hollowed out decoration. I didn't need a CD ignition system in my Espada once I put the two Pertronix kits in it but you can still add a MSD box if you want. No more points or gaps just fun driving.

 

I agree the Pertronix is a decent substitute to the dual contact points. I use them on Jaguars and they make a good product. The Pertronix by itself will not produce the same amount of spark as the Bosch CDi box, to achieve this I would have to add something like a MSD 6A. As soon as the Bosch box is eliminated the coil needs to change as this Bosch coil will not work properly with the Pertonix or MSD. The replacement coil will not look the same nor will it have the unique bullet connectors of the original Ghibli coil ... so now I am having to cut wires to change the connection. MSD will not work with solid spark plug wires therefore the original Cavis wires will have to be replaced. If an MSD is added then a tach adapter, and associated extra wiring, may also have to be added to make the Veglia tach work. As you can see all of the sudden a bunch of modifications are made when we depart from original. Agreed that it will run good and be more reliable, but it will not look or be as original.

If I cannot fix the original boxes the next best alternative to to put new guts inside the old boxes keeping the original plug connector.

Ivan

 

Ivan,

Can you direct us to some source of information as to what is so different about this ignition system? What is inside the coils, etc.? Is it all contemporary Porsche (as an earlier poster has stated)? So possibly looking at Porsche documentation will describe the guts?

Thanks,
Carmine

 

Not the same details of course but I was able to get a new set of Pertronix coils which once painted were indistinguishable from the original Marelli coils. As for performance, it's much better than the stock system on an early Espada. I'm unclear as to why I'd need to add a CD style unit though people do?

I'm using solid core 7mm wires though not Cavis. Perhaps I'm not as big a stickler for originality? Some of the vintage Lambo guys think I'm old fashioned though ... Several are using digital ignition and some even FI on those older V12s. I wanted the look of the distributor and all the wires which flow from it. You could still use Pertronix with a repaired old Bosch box.

Have you called Pertronix to discuss these issues? That assumes you get anyone knowledgeable on the phone ...

 

Hello Ivan,

After reading a lot about the CDI in the last days, i always came across this german Homepage:

Reparatur Bosch HKZ für Porsche 911 und 914/6

With google translator:

Google Übersetzer

I didn't had any contact with them, but they seem to have much knowledge about that bosch Ignition Boxes.

they are repairing the boxes for an overall of 250 Euros plus some extra money if you want in Sandblasted, new Stickers, a new conector plug or something else....

maybe you should contact them?

Best regards, Hendrik

 

Hi Carmine,

On a standard ignition setup one terminal of the coil is connected to a 12 volt supply and the other to the contact points. On the Bosch CDi one coil terminal is permanently connected to ground while the other goes to the CDi box. Not exactly sure how this coil works but one thing I do know is that if you try to use it as a standard coil the engine will not run.

When the box died about a year ago I bypassed it and attempted to run the car as a standard coil + points setup. It would not spark. I replaced the coil with a standard Bosch blue coil and it started right up. I now carry a standard coil with me in case the replacement CDi box was to die.

The Alfa Montreal uses the same CDi box part No. 0 227 200 002 as the Ghibli. The Porsche uses 0 227 200 001 which is similar but not identical to the Ghibli. I read somewhere it is because the Porsche uses a breakerless ignition while the Maseratis (and Montreal) use dual points. I am not a Porsche guy so I do not know if this is true. I once connected a Porsche box to a Ghibli and it worked.

The Alfa Montreal also uses the same coils as the Ghibli, except the Montreal uses two coils and two CDi boxes!! Probably because the Alfa V8 revs higher than the Maserati V8.

This is what the Montreal website has to say about the coils:

"Montreals were equipped with a pair of Bosch 0 221 121 002 ignition coils. They have a primary winding resistance of 0.4 - 0.6 ohms and a secondary winding resistance of 650 - 790 ohms. These ignition coils are specifically designed to be driven by the relatively short-duration high-voltage pulses generated by the CD ignition units and coils designed for conventional contact breaker systems are not suitable. Because of the low primary winding resistance they cannot be tested with conventional testers such as the Bosch EFMZ1. The B coil is located forward of the A coil and the connections are numbered as follows: (1) Ground, (15) Input from CD unit, (4) High voltage output.

Alfa Romeo warned that to avoid damage to the electronic ignition units, EMC suppression capacitors should not be added to any components of the ignition system. Never connect or disconnect any cables (including those to the spark plugs) while the ignition is switched on and don't use the coil terminals as signal pickup points for ignition strobelamps. Ensure that there are good ground connections at the ignition units and the coils.

Replacement 0 221 121 002 coils are no longer readily available. The earlier 0 221 121 001 type which was made for certain Porsche 911 cars may be substituted, although they have slightly different dimensions and screw terminal input connectors instead of plug-in ones."

Ivan

 

I gotta say that based upon that description I would want to eject the unit from my car ASAP and just live with a coil that looks a bit different. It sounds way too finicky even when it does work correctly.

Yeah, the later Bosch box you describe is probably what's on the QPIII and late GT cars. Thank god. I can't imagine that working on a Ghibli with points though????

 

Perhaps the info in the attached link is applicable...don't know if the unit for the Maser is any different from the various units shown...

History of Bosch CDI ... toubleshooting info, parts list changes, and schematics ... - Pelican Parts Technical BBS

 

That does look very promising.

 

Believe it or not, the early Porsche 911's before 1976 I believe (it's been a while, so my dates may be off), used points...an electronic module replaced them in the mid-to-late-1970's.

 

Yes, early 911s used points. I replaced the points with a breakless system (name escapes me now of the maker). With the Porsche CDI, all parts can be replaced except the thyristor.

 

This is a GREAT link!

Ivan

 

The breakerless system was likely a Pertronix unit

 

Thought it would be helpful!

 

A fellow MChatter volunteered to look at the boxes and see if he could determine what is wrong. If nothing else we will learn if parts can be still be found and if the boxes can be fixed at a reasonable cost. More later.

Ivan