Anyone Here Actually Own a 348 GTB/GTS

Hi Red, think you may have the wrong end of the stick a little, if I understand you correctly. One Challenge series ran in the US, (at least) one in Europe. The cars that raced were broadly speaking based on the GTB but went a stage further on things like weight saving and chassis stiffening (I believe). They were denoted "Challenge" cars and were sold and raced in both the US and Europe. Those are the cars that are refered to as racing. It is possible that someone in the states could have bought a European GTB and 'converted' it to a challenge car but I don't think this is what is generally being said.

 

Thanks again !

 

Love the Red GTS in the brotherhood mag

 

Looks familiar, if a little lonely without its 'stablemate'. Black GTB looks kind of familiar as well

 

Right on, thanks D.

 

You can't help it, you're an Aussi, OY OY OY!

Hahahahahaaaaa.

 

As far as I understood it, 348 Challenge cars were standard road cars converted by dealers (or importers) via a kit. The kit was basically, racing seats, a roll cage, 348 Challenge script etc. I don't believe it involved anything like chassis stiffening.

Jonathan

 

What year is the yellow Spider in your post? I don't really understand why my 95 would have a different plenum? Why would Ferrari use it on some Spiders, and not others? If they were just blowing through old stock, they would have probably blown through that parts bin by the time my 95 rolled down the line. Did all 94 Spiders have the old plenum, and some of the early 95's? What am I missing? (Besides the taller plenum )

 

Jonathan, thanks. I had thought that you could buy challenge cars (in fact I have heard the term 'Factory Challenge Car' and thought that was opposed to the conversion kit that you're refering to, but I'm probably mistaken though. What I said about the chassis wasn't what I really meant (if that makes sense ). I had read that the properly converted Challenge cars had a stiffer chassis as a result of the way in which the roll cage was put in. At least that's what I think he meant - FBB on here wrote something about it not long ago. Thanks for the input though. Perhaps you can shed some light on Bookham's query above - my understanding is that the model updates were very much a 'rolling program' in those days, very difficult to pin each update down to a given chassis number.

Edit: It does seem as if the Challenge existed as a stand alone model on here but I can't find anything more definitive. Perhaps you'll be able to find something out, Jonathan http://www.ferrari.com/English/GT_Sport%20Cars/Classiche/All_Models/Pages/348_Challenge.aspx

 

Right, after a little digging it seems as if I was both right and wrong. Apparently you could convert existing cars to 'Challenge spec' by use of a kit bought through the dealers but Ferrari also sold "Challenge" cars with the conversion partly done and the rest in a box. Apparently welding points, carpet cutouts, harnes points, aluminum pedals and a larger heat shield were all in place but the roll cage was not installed. Some cars also had carbon brake cooling ducts and rubberized tow hooks, front and rear. Think I have that right ......

Edit: Standby with that, Jonathan has just told me that it is not as simple as that and he knows a lot more about it than me. Maybe it needs some more looking into

 

Right regarding the Challenge cars, having chatted with Jonathan and put a couple of sources together this seems to be the picture. The European Challenge cars were all converted from normal road cars with a kit, as Jonathan says. This was the first Ferrari 348 Challenge series. The modification took quite a few man hours as the roll cage points etc had to be welded to the chassis which required removal of a lot of the interior kit. Later when the second Challenge series was started in the states, Ferrari got round this by pre welding all the roll cage attachment brackets and harness points in some cars. Also several parts such as updated cooling for the brakes were factory fitted. A smaller Challenge kit was then an option that owners could specify at purchase or add later and as the pick up points etc were already in place it was much quicker to convert the cars to full Challenge Spec. The Europen cars were based on the TS and TB, I believe the US cars were based on the SS and 32 were delivered. All of this means that a European TS or TB can, in fact, be converted to full Challenge Spec (in the early European meaning of the term), meaning the only question remainingis obviously ..... So where do I get the kit!!!

p.s. And none of this has much to do with GTBs /GTSs as it seems Challenge cars were TS/TB in Europe and SS cars in the States, just found it interesting though.

 

I think I am confused. I have a 1994 TS Challenge its build date is Oct of 1993. VIN 98188. Is this what you guys are talking about?

 

I guess what I am asking is, is mine a GTS or not?

 

My understanding is no, probably not a GTS, it's a CH based on a SS or a straight SS that's been converted to Challenge spec. Take it it's a US spec car? Lots of tell tails like rear brake light on the engine lid, round side indicator repeaters on Euro spec, mad mouse seat belts on some US cars ... Oh yes and on some of the proper ones the steering wheel is normally correctly situated on the right hand side

 

No US cars got the taller plenum that was on the F119H engine, US cars got the F119G.

 

+1!

 

Thanks for clearing that up. I thought something sounded off.

 

So US spiders just had the same power as Euro TS/TB Daz? How's about US SS cars? My understanding was they were more or less GTB/ GTS spec engine wise. I understand the original engine was the F119D but without the taller plenums was the SS engine actually lower in power to the GTB/GTS? If so I'm guessing emissions were to blame?

 

No, no, no, no, NO!!

You guys are screwing yourselves all up.

Look.

All the 348 engines PRE GTB/GTS/GTC had 10.4:1 compression ratio. The early blocks where F119D or F119G. And again those blocks had the 10.4:1 compression ratio, AND the lower plenums.

The GTB/GTS/GTC 348s have the F119H block, with a HIGHER compression ratio of 10.8:1, AND the also have the taller plenums.

The extra power for the EARLY cars (G blocks) came from going to a single can exhaust, and a remapping of the ecu know as the spider mapping, because the spiders where the first to run the new programming. And before you ask it changed the air/fuel ratios and raised the rev limiter to 7750rpm. YESSSSSSSSS this includes the SS, and Spiders.

The GTB/S/C cars (H blocks) got a bit more power from the higher compression, and the taller plenums. As far as I know all 348s, ALL of them (please correct me if I'm wrong) run the same cam profiles, BUT the cam timing is different. The cam timing is changed to move peak power higher in the rpm range, which is why the need for the bigger plenum, and less over lap for cars without cats.

Are we a bit more clear now???????

 

Crystal Cheers Ernie. Going to dip my toe in the water then stand back waiting for a good talking to but were any changes in engine coincidental with the change from 2.5 to 2.7 Motronic? My car is a 2.7 (I'm told by the shop) but is not a GTS. I thought the 2.7 added more fuel maps (seem to remeber hearing that somewhere) but did they make other changes as well?

Engine wise it seem to have been fairly cut and dried then. Some of the other updates do seem to have come on when they were available, I guess that was my earlier point, clearly the plenums was a rubish example (had just seen Spider with both, US vs Euro now makes sense). I know a guy with a 348 TS that was only a few cars before mine on the production line (and one that was a few after) and there are a couple of things my car has that his doesn't (aerial around the front screen is an example but there are others.)

p.s Not debating any of what you've said Ernie but the Euro Spiders definitely have the taller plenums in the UK, at least some that I've seen do. I'm guessing then that they're in with the GTB/GTS/GTC while the US Spiders are in with the US SS cars, which makes sense.

 

Pete, all Euro spiders have the 119H engine (same as GTB/GTS/GTC)

 

Cheers Daz

 

I know we kind of vered off into Challenge cars for a bit there (or was that just me) but this was an interesting read for anyone who's interested:

My Ferrari 348 - Ferrari 348 Challenge

 

This thread has become so interesting and you guys certainly know your stuff!

Apart from the engine and suspension modifications between the tb/ts and the gtb/gts, were the any equipment changes such as the interior spec and trim etc that would distinguish the 2 versions? There was an interesting point above from Nosevi about the difference in the aerials.

Cheers.

 

Hi Peter, I think the answer is yes there are several but many of the changes didn't just happen on the introduction of the GTB, they seemed to happen at different times. On the European cars the aerial moving inside the front screen was one change that I think slightly pre-dated the introduction of the GTB.

Another change on the interior seemed to be on the storage area between the seats, rear of the gear lever etc. On all the later TBs/TSs I've seen it is just an open tray - no lid. On some spiders I've seen a flat, smooth lid to this box, whereas on some of the earlier cars I've seen it has a lid with stitched line across to match the seat cushions. Then on some spiders it seems to have two smaller areas with just the rear half having a lid. I haven't seen the lids on later TB/TSs or GTBs/GTSs, but maybe it was an option that some people didn't go for? So, lid, no lid, stitched, smooth, two areas, one area - it's almost like they couldn't make up their minds! I have just an open tray but personally prefer the look with the lid, albeit the one without the stitching, maybe I'll do a 'retrofit' some day.