Manuals vs Auto's - costs...

That, and the fact clutch life is reduced with F1s compared to manuals driven by someon who knows how to use a clutch.

 

Yeah, but a clutch change is a clutch change on them. Same clutch as the manual.

 

It is kinda sad... ESP that in Europe where the California was offered in stick ( I actually want one..) they only sold five (5)!

I personally won't drive an auto in this stage of my life. If I have the means one day I might make an Italia stick conversion. It can be done!

 

My Toyota Tundra has a mode where I can use the stick like a sequential shifter. By your definition, it's a manual.

Dave

 

I think that what defines a manual is the clutch pedal.

 

But you need fewer of them with the manual over the life of the car.

 

I have never had to replace a clutch in any car I owned, NOR brake pads. Not once before each car was towed to the scrap yard.

 

What tripe... I have never had a manual transmission go bad, nor has anyone I know (with one exception, which was a 1982 Chevette, so really shouldn't count). Automatics have historically been money pits and require more maintenance. Manuals have always been bullet proof for me and are nearly maintenance free.

I agree with be article however. If you are the kind of person who reads that type of "information" to learn how o get the best value buying a new econobox, the automatic is for you.

 

I believe the used car market part. A 430 with a manual is now 15K more that a F1. Its true that on a track or a drag strip that a F1 isnotionaly faster in pro hands. They are also much easier for poseurs and to drive in traffic.

The downside is that they remove one major part of driver machine interface. For those of us who look to driving as recreation, who enjoy the interaction with the machine, and skill of the whole thing A F1 gearbox is just a drag. Porche now not only is PDK on the GT3 but also EPS. Its all about cost and ease of meeting EPA regs.

From what I read the dodge Challenger is still a 50% manual take up rate, the Vette is around 30% BMW M cars 20% porche 991's 30%. Given the size of the market that is still a significant number of sportscar sales. BMW in particular responded to customer requests for the return of the manual.

The last GT3 was manual only they sold every one they could make. The new GT3 pdk only and eps with stock based motor will be made on a production line with all the other porches, they can make and sell more, its reallynow a badge engineering job on a hotter 991..

Ironicaly the last home of the true sportscar is the USA, as both the viper and vette have atrue manual and are great on track. Ferrari makes great cars, but their client base is very skewed to the pose crowd and they are disinclined to offer cars focused towards the driver crowd, great as their cars may be. My local F car dealer has told me of numerous sales they ahve lost to long time clients because of no manual. As to so few cali's being ordered with a manual, figure who buys a cali in general.

F1's are faster on paper, most people drive in traffic where they are much easier than a manual, they reduce driver interaction and fun. Its easier to meet emission and fuel economy regs with F1 and you only need to develop one spec if you dont offer a manual. Plus you can wrap it all up in a bunch of grand prix high tech claptrap. As Ferrari seems to have all the sales they need, they dont bother woth a manual even though they may be losing brand cred in the long term.

 

Looking at port of entry retail prices on window stickers for F430 Spiders and Superamericas, both F1 and manual (both '08s for the F430s, both '05s for the Superamericas), it appears that the base price is higher, before any options or gas guzzler tax or PDI fees, for cars with paddles. With that said, paddles nor sticks are listed as an option on any window sticker.

 

Enthusiasts don't want to accept this, and always shoot the messenger, but car manufacturers make what sells period. There is no conspiracy. As much as *diehard* manual trans fans *live and breathe it*, 10x more people hate it or at least don't prefer it. No matter how many insults get tossed around (not "real men", not "really driving" on and on), it doesn't matter because 99% of people don't run to check-in with strangers on a forum to make sure they have approval before buying something

I like a manual trans well enough and have owned some great ones (911, NSX, Corvette - well less great but you get the idea), but I can certainly understand the appeal of an automatic. I've owned some great dual clutch boxes also (GTR, Evo X MR, E92 M3).

It's immaterial though... The vast number of buyers want more and more performance, delivered more and more easily to them, with more and more utility. They want to be able to easily coast along in traffic listening to hi-fi sound streamed from their phone and then, when the traffic lets up, feel like Senna for just a bit before getting home.

I totally "get" that this scenario sends many into a full on Hulk rage for whatever reason, but there have been *zillions* of cars made over the past 50 odd years that can be kept on the road ostensibly forever with enough work (certainly a manly undertaking! ) "Enthusiasts" who hate the way the industry is evolving just need to stick with the older cars.

If there were any actual *commercial risk* involved in making these shifts, Ferrari, BMW, Porsche, et al would have already noticed it and would *not* be *doubling down* on the strategy at this point. It's hardly a new trend line.

 

It wasn't that long ago that the purists were upset that with the passing of the crash box that something was being lost. They were right but time moves on.

 

Unfortunately this is true... It's also true that more crash safety equipment and stability control, and launch control, and automatic braking, and Lane change alarms, etc etc are being installed on cars. All this "safety" equipment that could be avoided if drivers would simply pay attention when they drive their cars.

Ferrari used to be more of an ultimate car guys ride. Like a grand complication patek to watch guys. Since the late eighties though, the same yuppies that can't cook who bought Viking ranges for their homes also bought Ferraris to pose. It's more statistically likely today that a first time FCar buyer fit the above description fitting your average driver than a true enthusiast.

That being said, there are many on this forum that want a 3 pedal car that can't find one... Used market is different as well.

As to the original question.. To a person who uses the 3rd pedal as a footrest and the clutch to slow the car they're going to have a more spensive time than I will with a clutch, as with my driving style they last forever. It's individual style with clutch costs in the manual car.

 

Seems like I read in Forza magazine, that the rebuild on a F-1 transmission starts at about $25,000. Ouch. And they mentioned that replacing the CCB brakes cost 25-32 thousand dollars, depending on the model. As the newer Ferraris age, and depreciate, things like the type of transmission, and brakes the car have, will be a major consideration when buying the used Ferrari.

 

Your first word is "Enthusiasts" lets not forget that a "brand" like ferrari is built on the cred confered by "enthusiasts"

I get the multiplicity of reasons why people prefer paddlesh-it. If I lived in a city or even somewhere like LA where half my time was spent in traffic it would be the ideal compromise.
I also understand that you can sell a lot more cars to people who cant drive on image by making them easy to drive. Frankly this large customer base provides the volume to keep companies like ferrari and posrche in buisiness.

Thing is there is still a significant customer base who prefer a 3 pedal car, its not 1% as you imply. For porche its 30% and on a last GT3 it was 100% and the car was backordered, for BMW M series its 25% for Vette its 30%.

BMW for one is not doubling down on paddleshift. In fact they bough the clutch back, and its 30% of Mcar sales, which are sales they otherwise may not have made.

So yes by adding an autobox you pick up a lot more sales. But many of those people buying a auto sportscar are doing so because they want to identify with the enthisiast. Just like a rolex submariner identifies with James Bond and scuba divers. And yes some enthusiasts live in areas where a auto is the best option.

None of which is a reason not to offer a 3 pedal car to the 20-30% of customers who really want one. This is just coprate arrogance and greed(due to development costs).

Someone here pointed out that on the used car market the manuals are the ones to have. As resale values are a strong componant of the ferrari experience and brand value, perhaps having some 3 pedal cars to serve the used car enthusiast base is not such a bad plan to sustain "brand" image.

In any event to a certain extent Ferrari gets it. Everything I read says that they are trying to make their cars enjoyable again at all speeds not just 10/10ths, buiulding the fun back in, so maybe its just a matter of time till the 3 pedal returns.

If you look at the near miss that is Maclaren we can see its ultimate failing is that by comparisson with the 458 its a relatively passionless car no matter how technicaly interesting it is. Technical superiority and even lap times does not necessarily sell.

I buy my sportscars for pure driving recreation, and an ability to hold up on track. Mt next one is likely to be of the vette Viper or even SPf persuasion. I like maechanical involvement as much as I like performance. Frankly unless the new GT3 has somethig I cannot imagine its off the list. I tried a458 and it left me underwhelemed. Its really not much fun on the street and for my sensibiliy ruinous on the track.

Yesterday I drove around in my Lotus Boxer and M3. I always marvel at how competant the M3 is and how close it sort of comes to the other two. But in the end its just blah, too filyered and soft on the edges.

Frankly if you could only have 1 I would keep the lotus and drive a beater as a daily. Or to put it another way, if you have the means, have a hard core sportscar for DRIVING and get something comfortable and powerful for the daily grind if need be.

You lose too much of the fun of driving when the sportscar becaomes too techniclay competant and blanded down for daily use. that applies to Mclarens and Ferraris, its not just about auto box but the whole philosophy of making a car "useable" at the expense of design and experience.

Of course the beast that is the aventador can get away with a paddle because it just has so much else going for it, i think enthusiuasts agree. The aventador is impractical, hard to use and more than a bit crude. Its peformance on track does not match the best of maranello, yet its sold out for the next two years. Enthusiasts still exist.

 

I agree with Boxerman, just can not imagine that Ferrari will not again, in the future build 3 pedal cars. Also agree with the poster about the profits incentive for Ferrari, with the inital sale of the F-1 equipped cars, and much more profits down the road when those complex transmissions need to be overhauled. Lots of $$$ profit for the factory, and the dealer doing the repair. Hope Fiat/Ferraris greed dosen't totally win the day(and the bank account).Still think there is probably 20-30 percent of new Ferrari buyer's that would opt for the manual transmission.

 

In 2005 at least, Ferrari treated two and three pedal cars as separate models. Paddles were not an option. Even the waiting lists were separate. I happened to be first up at FOD for a 3 pedal coupe but they could not predict when it might come. They had to wait until the powers that be allocated one. IIRC, my car was the 5th coupe overall they delivered. If I had wanted 2 pedals, I would have waited much longer. The next buyers waited much longer for three pedal cars and towards the end, I know at least one guy who wanted three pedals finally threw in the towel and accepted a two pedal car. Ferrari did not make enough 3 pedal cars to meet demand, at least not on 430s.

Dave

 

Basically you're right, but I remember an old Nissan Sentra I used as a winter beater in Cleveland for a year where fifth gear had been damaged by a previous owner. I think I paid a couple of grand for the car, so it wasn't worth fixing, but the health of a manual gearbox sort of depends on how it was treated over its life. Automatics are pretty much idiot-proof. F1 or DCT boxes are somewhere in between.

But there must be a conspiracy.

I actually hate automatics, but the DCT boxes hit the sweet spot, IMHO, for modern cars. Not sure whether to believe this or not, but when I was shopping the Porsche salesman said that the clutches in the PDK boxes were good for well over 100,000 miles. So, the jury's out, but if that's the case than perhaps the costs aren't all that material. A lot of drivers of old style three-pedal cars are going to need a clutch before 100,000 miles.

+1

Agreed. I also doubt you'll be seeing CCBs replaced, probably converted to steel discs which are equally fine for public roads.

The other factor, to get back to the thread title, is that money generally is no object for the new Ferrari buyer, so the cost discussion of three-pedal manual versus F1 or dual-clutch is irrelevant. Frankly, this whole thread is more relevant to the guy buying a daily driver Mustang or Toyota, where the car is part of the household budget equation.

I think the two-car solution is the way to go these days. I don't want to retrofit carbs and a stick shift to my 2013 Audi, but on the weekend I'm excited to go for a real drive that is strictly about driving somewhere fun and testing my skills.

 

I've had the 'Tiptronic' type of gearbox in several cars. It has a torque converter, so you're not changing gears directly. Nuanced, but a different animal.

A dual clutch box is a manual with an automated clutch. Doesn't shift unless the driver calls for it, and it's up to the driver to decide when to change gear, and what gear to be in. Yes, you can set it to an automatic mode, just like you can set some cars to park themselves. For a daily driver, it's a nice selling point. Unfortunately, San Diego is a series of traffic jams during the week, and the few times I've been caught in those situations in the Speedster I've just ended up expaserated. Wrong tool for the job.

Compared to traction control, stability control, variable assist steering, drive by wire and the other nannies on modern cars, the automated clutch part of the DCTs is small potatoes, IMHO.

 

I would love to bring a stick cali over here. Talk about a rare car!

 

You can.
If you wait for the DOT EPA standards to expire.

 

You are talking about a fluid connection been the motor and trans vs a mechanical connection. It has no bearing on the definition of "automatic". Just as DCTs can be put in automatic mode, any slushbox could be programmed to shift only with driver input. My Tundra will not upshift without me telling it when it is in manual mode. Is a DCT better than a slushbox? Absolutely. But it Ain't no manual.
Dave