87 328--need advice on hard start issue-redux! | Page 2 | FerrariChat
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87 328--need advice on hard start issue-redux!

Discussion in '308/328' started by greg328, May 10, 2013.

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  1. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #26 greg328, May 13, 2013
    Thanks Chris. I just figured it out. I pried the blue connector wire up with a sharp knife edge, and it came right off. I do indeed have the entire air intake box off the car, couldn't get to it otherwise.

    Now for the big news: with the blue safety switch clip removed, the fuel pump comes on with the key turn, at full buzz, without fail. This tells us the fuel pump and related circuitry are good, right? Remember, I have a brand new fuel pump, accumulator and filter, installed.
    Also new coil ignition modules. I'll check for spark again now, as the car is currently not starting. Cranking well, just not starting.

    Greg
     
  2. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #27 greg328, May 13, 2013
    Spark is occurring. also, after cranking, fuel metering plate is staying up top with more resistance. it would return to top after pressing down regardless. so, i presume fuel pressure is retained after shutdown? and, Im getting good fuel pressure, period?

    Greg

    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
     
  3. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #28 Steve Magnusson, May 13, 2013
    No, this confirms that the fuel pump, the fuel pump relay, and a PORTION of the circuitry is OK.

    Did you try starting the engine with the saftey switch unplugged? If it does, that would confirm that you have a problem in the other portion of the circuitry; if it doesn't (and you have spark), that's a deeper problem.
     
  4. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #29 greg328, May 13, 2013
    Steve,
    i did try to start the engine with the safety connector unplugged and it cranked as normal, but would not start. it popped really loud one time so i stopped cranking.

    ???
    Greg

    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
     
  5. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #30 Steve Magnusson, May 13, 2013
    Not a good sign.

    Have you confirmed that the cold start injector is not stuck "on" (electrically) when the starter motor is cranking (i.e., try starting again with the safety switch unplugged and the cold start injector unplugged). If no joy, you're getting into needing to measure what the various pressures are doing IMO.
     
  6. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #31 greg328, May 13, 2013
    Steve,
    Can you confirm for me again what/where the cold start injector is? Is it the other blue connector up high leading into the intake manifold, above the water pump?

    By the way, I unseated/reseated the 2 bulkhead connectors near the oil cooler-1 round 4-pin (flywheel sensors?) and the larger Molex one next to it. Both were and are still securely seated.

    Just a word of appreciation here to all, I REALLY appreciate the help you all are offering. The car is currently in the air and ready for further diagnosis.

    Greg
     
  7. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

    Feb 7, 2011
    2,775
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    #32 andyww, May 13, 2013
    What method are you using to verify spark?

    It might be worth making absolutely sure you have a good strong spark before finally eliminating ignition and focussing on fuelling which is a trickier area to check. I'm a bit old school here and use an old spark plug connected to chassis with a jumper cable, and connect each plug wire (with extender) to it in turn. If doing this ensure there is no fuel vapor present though and remove fuel pump relay!
     
  8. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #33 greg328, May 13, 2013
    Andy,
    I'm using an inline spark tester, that flashes a lamp in the presence of spark. It indeed does flash during cranking. I did this on the most-accessible plug lead, rear left. I'll test a front bank plug as well, today, and report back. Truly a puzzle...

    I need to check the protection relay fuse in the trunk as well. It was OK months ago when IO checked it under Steve's advice.

    Can somebody tell me where the cold start injector is on my 328?

    Thanks,
    Greg
     
  9. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

    Feb 7, 2011
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    #34 andyww, May 13, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  10. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #35 greg328, May 13, 2013
    Thanks Andy, that's what I thought. So, is the next test to unplug the cold start injector plus the safety switch (2 blue connectors) and then try to start again?

    Greg
     
  11. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

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    #36 andyww, May 13, 2013
    Yes, as Steve said in case the cold start injector is dumping fuel in when it shouldnt be.

    Another thing you could try is starting while pressing down a couple of mm on the metering plate.

    Also, when the fuel pump is running, pressing down further on the metering plate (not cranking) you should hear the injectors squirting fuel.
     
  12. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #37 greg328, May 13, 2013
    Andy,
    All good, thank you. I've got to run out for the rest of today, will try your tests tomorrow and report back!!

    Greg
     
  13. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #38 greg328, May 15, 2013
    OK, I've done a couple things suggested, here are the results:

    Pulled both blue connectors, safety switch AND cold start injector connector.
    With key ON but not cranking,

    A) the pump runs, the frequency valve vibrates, and pushing down on the air metering plate sends fuel rushing out of the fuel distr. to the lines, very audible. The air metering plate is firmly in the "up" position. Feels very firm, but can be pushed without much force.

    B) The car started today, but needed a bit of coaxing, as is normal when it starts. This is with BOTH blue connectors pulled.

    I re-plugged both connectors, and the car started again, just like it did with unplugged connectors. Idles and runs as normal both times.

    SOMETHING is causing hard starts, and sometimes preventing starting at all. Pumping the gas pedal seems to sometimes be the secret to bringing it to life.

    I'm open for ideas, guys!

    Greg
     
  14. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
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    #39 Steve Magnusson, May 15, 2013
    Don't have anything else besides:

     
  15. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #40 greg328, May 15, 2013
    Thanks Steve. If you're exhausted of ideas, I'm REALLY starting to worry!!

    I see or smell no fuel leaks anywhere, to tip off a pressure-loss situation.

    I need to check the front bank for ignition during cranking; I've not yet done that. Will report back.

    Thanks!
    Greg
     
  16. lonnie77

    lonnie77 Karting

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    #41 lonnie77, May 15, 2013
    Greg. One thing you might check is the connection on the ignition switch. I can't remember if it will allow the starter to crank or not but it will keep it from running. This double wire quick disconnect can become loose and cause problems.
    504 (1) | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
    It was the culprit on problem # 346 with my car.
     
  17. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #42 greg328, May 15, 2013
    hmm... I'll certainly have a look. I think I checked that connection a few months ago, but I'll go back and have another look. Thanks for the input.
    Greg
     
  18. andyww

    andyww F1 Rookie

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    #43 andyww, May 16, 2013
    Did you try starting with the metering plate held down a couple of mm?

    All of this leans very much towards ignition. I have never used one of those inline spark testers, I am wondering if they are indicating even if the spark is very weak. Also they would still give a positive indication if the spark were jumping from the extender to the head rather than the spark plug. If it were an extender problem most of the 8 would need to be bad to cause the problem and it likely wouldnt run very well though. Strange.

    I would have thought that even if there were no fuelling at all through the injectors the engine would run for a few seconds on fuel from the cold start injector. Does it "catch" and run for a few seconds before dying or never fire at all?

    Maybe the cold start injector is not working. Trying to start while the plate is held down slightly might prove this.

    At the end of the day, Steve is right, if nothing else, you would need to put a CIS gauge set on it if you have absolute confidence in the ignition system and ruled that out.
     
  19. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #44 greg328, May 16, 2013
    Andy,
    i did not try to start the engine while pressing slightly on the metering plate; that takes a second person, whom I'll seek out today and attempt.
    your instincts are where Im heading as well--back to ignition as the culprit. I'll remove the flywheel sensors and clean them. what sticks in my mind are the times when i checked for spark and saw none. adding to the mystery is how pumping the gas pedal can sometimes coax the car into starting. by the way, once the car catches, it runs strong and steady, no dying.
    ???
    Greg

    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
     
  20. lonnie77

    lonnie77 Karting

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    #45 lonnie77, May 16, 2013
    The flywheel sensors were my next suggestion. Problem #315 was the TDC cable had became hard. While the engine was running I moved the cable and the engine stopped. I tried to start it and it would not start until I moved the cable back. You should be able to swap the two sensors and see if it changes anything. When I bought mine (from the UK @$42 ea) it used the same sensor for both; SEN8D.
     
  21. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #46 greg328, May 16, 2013
    Thanks Lonnie, I'll check 'em out. Hard to see where the forward one goes to. The rear one clearly mounts to the rear side of the bell housing..
    I'll figure it out.

    Greg
     
  22. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #47 greg328, May 16, 2013
    Question: Can I bench-test the flywheel sensors if I remove them? Would be nice to know if they are defective before I order new ones.

    Sub-question: Does anybody have any info regarding fitment problems with the Superformance UK flywheel sensors? I read on here that the mounting screw plate doesn't quite line up and needs a bit of machining. Fact or Fiction?

    Thanks guys,
    Greg
     
  23. Elentinos

    Elentinos Formula Junior

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    #48 Elentinos, May 17, 2013
    I recently have changed my flywheel sensors with the sensors ordered form superformance. They are also Marelli made (SEN8D) but the mounting plate differs from the original sensors (Marelli SEN8F). That can easily be modified.

    See
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/mondial/364375-rough-idle-loss-power-backfire-5.html#post141428390

    BTW, my flywheel sensors showed the specified resistance (about 700 ohm) but they were defect. I think the only way to test them is to show the signal on an oscilloscope.
     
  24. greg328

    greg328 F1 Rookie

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    #49 greg328, May 17, 2013
    Great info, thanks. I'm going to go ahead and order the pair of sensors from Superformance UK, along with a gasket/seal set. Next issue I need to solve is an oil leak on the cam gear side; not sure if its a cam seal or cam cover but that's a different thread! :)

    I'll still check front bank spark today.
     
  25. Verell

    Verell F1 Veteran
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    Verell Boaen
    #50 Verell, May 17, 2013
    Greg,
    One thing I haven't seen mentioned:

    Make sure that both ECUs have good grounds, AND that the ground for the ECU wiring near the bulkhed and/or the coils (not sure where it is on the 328) isn't corroded.

    Somewhere in the archives there are instructions for using tinned copper braid for grounding the ECUs.

    I haven't seen much about this problem in recent years, but it's well documented in the old fchat archives.

    BTW, when you clean all the corrosion off of the grounds, give everything a film of dielectric grease before reassembly. It will keep humidity from re-starting the corrosion.
     
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