The Lewis decision...

Since being the youngest at damn near everything in F1, what has Vettel done? Three titles. Case closed. He's phenomenal. He's in a different league. Ask Webber, who was regarded as quite fast until Vettel made him look like a second rate whiner.


Mark

 

Cute comparison, except that Vettel has already played three times at Carnegie Hall and set a few other records:

- Most championship points earned in a season
- Most starts from front row in a season
- Most pole positions in a season
- Most laps led in a season
- Most wins from pole position in a season

So the child prodigy is no longer a child nor has he plateaued.

In a few other stats, he is moving up the ranks:
- 6th winningest driver
- 3rd in pole positions bagged
- 3rd highest cumulative career points

and a bunch more, but I'm getting too lazy to enumerate them all

 

No need.

He's already achieved more than Mansell. He's unquestionably one of the fastest guys out there, regardless of car. Mansell never was.

Further, Mansell was a whining ***** unless his car was *perfect*, and he lucked into such a car..... I'm pretty sure almost any one of 'em could have won in that car.

Cheers,
Ian

 

While that is true, Mansell (just like Kimi) had also countless seasons of horrendous bad luck. So that was Karma's payback.

I'm a fan of both, Mansell and Hamilton and as such would however agree that Hami has already eclipsed Mansell's achievements and reputation. A 2nd title would nicely cement that.

 

I dont think Hamilton is that great He will never be known as a Senna, Schumacher or Mansell. Hell I think Hakkinen is a better driver then Hamilton. I would put Hamilton in the same league as Jacque Villnuneve( Sorry If I missed spelled his name). I honestly think at the moment Schumacher was doing a better job then Hamilton is.

 

I think Louis made the right decision. If his legacy is that he only drove for one top team his entire career, people would say "it was the car" or "he never challenged himself".

He's been world champ. He's beating the team he left. He's in more control at Merc than he was at McLaren and probably even makes more money in endorsements because of it.

I would say it was a good deal.

 

+1 Agreed, he also appears to have more freedom.

however I'am sure he is gutted at the performance of the car in Spain.

 

You really hate Mansell

I think Mansell was one of the fastest out there and should have at least had another title to his name. That tire failure in '86 at the last race robbed him of that title. He also beat his 3x WDC teammate in Nelson Piquet that year. Nigel was very fast, IMO.

 

"Hate" is too strong of a word - No hatred necessary here.

I've made no secret of my feelings - He was, IMESHO, one of, if not the most, undeserving WDC of all time. *Nobody* (not even the current Cans!) could whine like him.....

Yep, I've conceded that before. *If* the car was perfect, the wind was in the right direction and it was other than a full moon. If he wasn't on pole the car sucked. If he didn't win it was *always* someone else's fault. etc etc.

No, I don't like him!

Cheers,
Ian

 

I just have to disagree. Considering he deserved to win the '86 title and that was when the cars were arguably the hardest to drive and the competition was arguably the toughest. Mansell got a good car eventually, but he paid his dues in bad luck, as Andreas said.

Still the greatest pass of all time, dusting off your guy Senna :

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_L2x0r12IGc](f1) 1986 hungarian gp nelson piquet vs ayrton senna - YouTube[/ame]

 

For the record, I consider the most undeserving WDC of all time (hate the term undeserving, good car or not you still have to go out there and win) to be Villeneuve in 1997.

 

They let kids play at Carnegie hall/Lincoln Center now......but that's another matter.


For essentially one team, and always in an amazing car with a sloppy teammate. Similar to Kimi last season, only Grosjean was the epitome of suicidal lunatic teammate. Vettel's previous successes with Toro were in mixed conditions (rain) and he even stated it could not be repeated in normal conditions, let's see how he does with Kimi as his teammate although that might not even be a great comparison as Massa was every bit as quick/quicker at times. Point being is Vettel has never had a world class teammate like Lewis vs Alonso were or Senna vs Prost, now those were fights. Vettel has had Webber who has been very sloppy for some time now, just watch his qualy laps. If Vettel can repeat this level of prowess with other teams and any teammate then and only then would I classify him on the level of Alonso.

Hitting a plateau as a racing driver is nearly an impossible thing to measure as they're measured against their teammate and the capabilities of the car. For this Alonso is a better driver than Vettel but he doesn't sport Vettel's record at the moment, will my mind ever change about Alonso's superiority over Vettel? Only time will tell, but as for now, no way, I could care less about Vettel's 'numbers' for the time being. Let's see him pull a Schumacher of the late 90s or Alonso of the past couple years, or what Lewis has done with Mclaren the past couple years in clearly inferior machinery. THAT is true greatness. Vettel is a product of Newey's genius and he will forever be attached to Newey if he ever changes to another team and fails to produce 'the magic'.




Vettel will have to leave Red Bull if he wants a true shot at legendary status. That or at least have a very very good teammate and some crap cars thrown at him. Vettel's numbers are also based on many more races per season than prior drivers' seasons so I cannot give those much weight either as per % I believe Mansell still holds those records with the mighty FW14. He's practically had a 1992 Williams in his hands for a while now, what's the point of rattling off driver's statistics in such a brilliant car? Seriously now. I refuse to give much weight to what he's been doing -other than being less than a great sportsman and teammate-. ANd if his former boss, Gerhard Berger says Nico Rosberg and Vettel are every bit the equal than Vettel can't be that good haha.

 

Yup. His records for most laps lead, most races won, most poles blah blah blah for the % of races had at that time still stand I believe. Vettel's numbers are simply inflated because there are more races now, false records by % though. Was all this because of Mansell himself? No way, it was because FW14 was the RB7 of the day. Simple, any good F1 driver could win in cars like that.

 

It is Keke for me.

Almost ended up getting the WDC without a win.

 

Good point. Forgot about that one. That was a Ferrari driver's title to lose and unfortunately F1 lost both of them...

 

I'd put Kimi in that list too. He's proven almost every critic of his wrong last year; his only real flaw was qualifying pace and so far this year he's solved that one too.

I've said it a few times before; Webber has only ever been beaten by Vettel. He's beaten each and every one of his teammates (with the exception of 2007, with coulthard, but beat him by almost 3x as many points the following year).

I find it very hard to understand why people are still saying Vettel isn't as good as he seems. You don't win 3x WDC on the trot by being lucky jumping into the quickest car. One yes, but 3? Not a chance.

 

Disagree. The RB7 was undoubtly strong but finished 1st and 3rd in the WDC. It was massively strong but mainly in Vettel's hands only. He completely wiped the floor with everyone. Webber even struggled at times.

FW14 OTOH, even Patrese was awesome in that thing.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that he is great; but, as I have already written, I am rather a fan of the guy (so Bas and myself share at least our enthousiasm for Kimi and Vettel...).

Vettel fans seem to be quite rare over here in France; I guess this has something to do with what John (ferrari pilot) pointed out: that it is difficult to distinguish between what comes from Seb himself, and what comes from Newey. Perhaps also that he has had everything a bit too easy until now. Again, I know this is not fair, even not true, but this is what I understand to be the perception from the majority of F1 enthusiasts here.

Perhaps these doubts are not fair on the guy; but for these reasons, and that's what I mentionned at the beginning, I think that all doubts will only be over when (or if?) Seb drives another car, designed by somebody else, and wins another crown.

The rest: collections of numbers, youngest age, etc…are indeed impressive, but not the Stuff that the True Greats are made of: remember Gilles Villeneuve…one does not become great by adding numbers. Besides, above a certain level, numbers began to loose signification: with 91 Grand Prix Victories, is Michael Schumacher exactly 15 times greater than Gilles Villeneuve?

Rgds

 

Perhaps not having a GP in their country has diminished their ability to perceive true greatness?

Seriously, if one doesn't see the exceptional talent in Vettel after 3 titles, well, there is not much else that can be done or said to open their eyes.

Peut-etre il est grand temps de suivre un different interet, par example bricolage ou boule?
To paraphrase Asterix: Il sont foux les Francais!

 

No, Andreas, I'm really serious here, and this is something that puzzles me. I often end up as the one defending Sebastian Vettel here (and besides, I'm suspect in doing this to the eyes of some, because, being born on the french/german border and with a german name, speaking and understanding german, I'm suspect of having, let's say "vested interests").

There is almost always a lingering doubt here that he has had things too easy, that it is the car (or rather Newey) but not him, etc...he does not have a very high "sympathy coefficient".
I know, as you do, that for most Ferrari enthusiasts things will change the very day he puts the red suit on (and then, it will be the car that wins, and not him), but, put on simply, I think that another crown in another car, not designed by Newey, would, once and for all, put all doubters at rest.

And as for the disappearance of the french G.P...I know how you feel about the historical French G.P having disappeared, but I'm sorry to write this again: I don't think that is upsetting a lot of persons, and with each day passing, the chance of having a french Grand Prix again in the future is diminishing; the "willingness" is simply not here anymore. The politicians are very aware of this and are just doing what's necessary to have the idea dying slowly itself...
But this is not the topic here.

Rgds

 

Seriously, you have to want NOT to see greatness in Vettel. To deny the kid anything, you have to actively shut your eyes to what is right in front of you.


Mark

 

Some guy by the name of Jimmy, regarded as the very best by many, many experts, also won championships for the same team and designer.

I suppose he sucked too .

 

Same goes for Alonso come to think of it. He only won 2 championships because his car was designed by one dude and for one team. He hasn't won a championship since either.

Also some other guy won 7 WDC's and all cars where designed by one chap.

They all suck and our life is a lie

 

Getting back to the topic.

Lewis claims (and many respected journos believe) that he left Macca primarily because of the restrictive team atmosphere and the demands they put on him to do promotion.

I don't expect McLaren to be down for long and nothing bodes well for MB.

 

So David, what you mean is that he won't stay at MB, or that MB won't be there for long, but that he won't have any interest in going back to McLaren either, due to the restrictive team atmosphere, etc? And that leaves him with all the other possibilities: Red Bull, Ferrari, Catherham, Marussia, etc...??