David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

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Yes, ok. Thank you very much. My source was Christian Huet in his Cavalleria book Ferrari P3/412P. He also says in his Ferrari 512 S&M book that the gearbox in those cars was the tipo 603S which was derived from the P4 component. Gearboxes tipo 603, 603P and 603R may not be the same but surely they are very similar and also derived from each other?

 

As the 350 Can Am was "derived" from the P4. They are different typo's: Period.

A 350 Can Am is not a P4 anymore than a 512S is a 350 Can Am or a 350 Can Am is a 612 Can Am or a 612 Can Am is a 712 Can Am or a P3 is a 412P or a 412P is a P4 or a P3 and a 412P are a P 3/4.

 

Very good, Jim but different context. The 350 P4 Can Ams weren't derived from 330 P4s, they were modified/converted from them. I'd say a 512 Boxer was derived from a 365 Boxer or a 512TR derived from a Testarossa.

 

Your spin is putting me to sleep.

This Non Period Rebody P4 Recreation has been for sale for a long time. May surprise you but it doesn't surprise me.

Ciao

 

I am not the expert on these cars as most others participating in this fascinating discussion however I do have an opinion. When a subject car is rebuilt from the original it always goes back to what it was when it originally left the factory. Take any of the many "fake" 250 GTOs and the discussion always goes back to what original chassis and s/n the cars sits on.This information is always the basis for how the car is judged and its provenance written. Though 0858 lived only a few months as a pure P4 it still remains technicly a P4 modified as a CanAm machine with s/n 0858. Historicly its record as a P4 out does anything that followed. The fact that this modification was a S F operation still doesn't change that the car originally was a S.F P4 with s/n 0858 and always will be. The fact that 0858 is now being returned as near as possible to its original, supervised by no other, historicly, than the greatest exponent of the P series machines should now be acceped.No it will never be "original" but what P4 or for that matter, what Ferrari of the period really is.? My feeling is that most of the Ferrari comunity will accept this as the recent poll seems to indicate. tongascrew

 

"My feeling is that most of the Ferrari comunity will accept this as the recent poll seems to indicate."
tongascrew

Res Ipsa Loquitur

I think it has enhanced the value of the car. 11
I think it has NOT enhanced the value of the car. 43

If I owned 0858, I would have done this. 14
If I owned 0858, I never would have done this. 65

If I owned 0858, I would be happy with the quality of the work. 5
If I owned 0858, I would NOT be happy with the quality of the work. 32

 

I knew someone would correct me on the poll and I even voted supporting the D P rebody. Can anyone remind me why I have just been put on a glutin free diet? tongascrew

 

Agree, Miuriasv seems to forget when the P4 was converted into a 350 Can Am it ceased to be a P4, the changes by his own admission were "minor but some were irreversible" a contradiction in terms if ever there was one. A 350 Can Am has little in common with a P4 so for all purposes they two are totally different cars.

Bottom line the market will speak on this car and I think its going to speak loudly, I just hope the classic car press doesnt romance this conversion, instead it would take a brave editor to ask the simple question "why". When I think about how such an article may be written I am reminded why I never went into that industry...

I still maintain history has not been preserved here.

 

The only irreversible thing is the bored out engine which is hardly a major thing. Does an Aston Martin DB4 GT Zagato cease to be one because it's been bored out to 4.2 from its original 3.7? No, and that's a 500 cc difference not 200cc. The car in its reconfigured P4 form, with its 4.2 tipo 247 engine, the remnant left in it as a 350 P4 Can Am, can and should be celebrated and prized for its history of both its incarnations.

 

Which serves history best?
An other P4 (with questioned history)
Or the only 350 CanAm?

 

In my opinion the latter.

 

We arent talking about Aston Martins, we are talkig about what was the last remaining 350 Can Am, there is a difference. Last time I checked no DB4 Z has been fitted with a replica DB5 body manufactured in Hong Kong.

 

You guys should have really started a "save the last CanAm" fund to prevent this timeless beauty and irreplaceable f-car from being turned into a terrible English replica. Seeing how many diehard fans this car apparently has/had it shoudnt have been a prob to match the reserve at that RM auction. lol Get over it. In a couple months this car will be shown and admired in P4 form and all that fuss will soon be forgotten.

 

I dont think the fuss will be forgotten, though the motoring press I am sure will do there best to put a slightly different spin on the story. Had the car been sent to Italy, converted there using the same body building techniques, the story would be slightly different, albeit only slightly.

My question to you is, ok you beleive the car should be a P4, do you also beleive that the last original Can Am should be reversed to create it? Also do you not beleive the conversion should have been carried out by Classiche?

 

"lol"

This Non Period Rebody P4 Recreation has been for sale for a long time.

As Mark said "The last laugh is the best."

 

Can it be un-reconverted to Can Am again?

Sooner or later, someone with money will want to do it.

 

Forgotten? You are dearly mistaken. This car will always be a 'stories' car and it will never match up to the genuine P4 and 412P's. Anyone in the market for a car like this, will know about 0858 and will know that in it's renewed P4-form it is subject of debate.

Besides, anyone with an interest in 0858 with a fake P4-body and the funds to go with it, would probably be able to put a deal together and commission the P4-body themselves. That it is now done on the initiative of the seller probably also means that no one is really that interested in a 350 Canam with a less than original P4 body.

 

I think some people here take this way too seriously. Personally I dont believe this car should appear in P4 form.....thats the current owners business and he's free to do what he wants with the car. If he wanted to keep it as CanAm, that would be perfectly fine too.

The only thing that strikes me in this thread is the sudden obsession with so-called original components. If you want to preserve a race car in its completely original form this is only possible as a static object. Lets say the original CanAm car would have been campaigned in a couple of historic racing events. You bet that after couple of races it will have some bent panels, the engine may blow....all these things that have happened so many times with other historic racers including very high priced ones. So now gone is that highly original example....

Again IMHO it is quite foolish to be so infatuated with perfect original specs for these kind of cars as they are constantly wrecked, rebuild and modified if used as intented. 0858 has a continuous history and mostly Maranello made parts, it is now some kind of hybrid P4/CanAm car but that becomes part of its history as well and as far as Im concerned its perfectly legitimate to present it as P4 even with CanAm spec engine and drivetrain.

 

It is a genuine P4 IMHO, modified yes and not 100% as per original spec but its core (or 'DNA' as its been called in this thread before) is still the real deal.

Will it fetch as much as a an untouched P4? Probably not, but what are the odds that two of these rare birds come up for sale at the same time? How often do you see two GTOs next to each other at the same auction? Not that often......How much $$$ this particular car will fetch at the end is much more dependend on other factors (current economic situation and Ferrari market etc.)

And btw 90% of all old racers are "stories" cars.....so thats not too bad.

 

"I think some people here take this way too seriously."

Having devoted more than a few $$ and a lot of research time to the restoration of a Ferrari of no particular historical interest, it's disheartening to see people who IMO should give a damn throw away the 350 Can Am. The car's place in a now mythical race series would seem to make it worthy of preservation.

But then, I think it was a crime to remove the Abbott body from 0165; it too has to be numbered in the song. If only ... an Abbott kickstarter?

Surprised by the strong difference of opinion on this one, to me it seemed a clear call.

25 pages ago (Macca):

Umm.....they're not restoring it; they're turning into something that it wasn't when it left the factory in order to increase its perceived value to catch someone with too much money....shades of GTE/GTO.

23 pages ago (Napolis):

0858 was a 350 Can AM. Putting an incorrectly made (English Wheel) replica "P4" body on it and chopping off some of it's original 350 Can Am Chassis to fit that Replica body doesn't magically change the facts.

 

One of my comments on the Talacrest Facebook page was that the people with the greatest appreciation for Ferrari's history should also be the ones doing the most to protect it. With their conversion of this car in a purely profit-driven exercise and the deletion of my comments which didn't fit their agenda I think it is very clear where they stand and it is indeed quite disappointing.

>8^)
ER

 

The fact that this car since going down this road has not sold for a long times proves your point.


"Besides, anyone with an interest in 0858 with a fake P4-body and the funds to go with it, would probably be able to put a deal together and commission the P4-body themselves."

Ferrari Classiche was standing by to do the job properly and bless the rebody and there is no question that done that way the market would have a MUCH better perception of this choice.

 

Aren't they all a subject of debate to some degree?

 

Let me get this straight. 0858, was constructed by the factory as a coup. That is what the car was when it was born.

It was then converted by the factory into a cam am car.

Born as a coupe..converted to can am.

In my eyes the coupe is more original then the can am car.

I'm I wrong? What am I missing..I must not be understanding somthing.

Confused...