David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

At some point, a far-east factory made Rolex copies using the same supplier as Rolex themselves for the movements. Are they then equals? I don't think so.

Brandoli won't do anything for any amount of Lire: Euro's perhaps, yes. Point is made though.

SpA at the time of auction said they actually WOULD do the work, but they would never certify the outcome as a P4.

Best,

Jack.

 

A 250GTO made out of a GTE is very much a replica even though ~80% of the car is/was real.

Pete

 

This was my point that getting the people Ferrari use to rebody a car directly is not the same as going through Ferrari Classiche who would licence/authorise and instruct the work as well as oversee it.

Is this only because it contravenes Classiche's policy of only awarding Red Book Attestation to cars in the specification as they last left the factory?

 

A 250 GTO made out of a 250 GTE was never a 250 GTO though, so yes it's a Ferrari based replica. What's happening with 0858 is very different and is like turning the 250 GTO into a 250 GTE and then turning it back into the 250 GTO it was originally.

 

That it ceased being a debate was not of my doing. It wasn't me that used words such as sad, pathetic, abomination, abortion, desecration to describe this project which are malicious and totally unjustified. I do have a respect for others opinions on here including yours and try to be objective. I also respect Mr Glickenhaus, his great Ferrari knowledge, especially of the P cars, and am aware of his high standing in the Ferrari community. But as I have said previously, it is not reasonable to criticise the work of DP because it is not yet finished to be judged, and as far as I know nobody here has actually seen the car in the flesh. It would have been fairer to enquire about the strips on top of the side windows for example rather than just say they are wrong. An enquiry rather than a criticism would have yielded the discovery that the strips are merely in place as temporary bridges for the window supports of the not yet fitted windows. I am unaware of ignoring valid points.

Who can argue with Ferrari themselves restoring any of their own cars? However, Mr Piper restoring the car also has great merit and adds value to the project as I have stated previously. Please look towards the bottom of post 553 here: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-redline-restorations/381798-david-piper-restores-talacreast-p4-28.html

It is not fair for individuals to preach to others that Ferrari Classiche should have carried out the works, when they have not only not used them for restoring their own important cars, but have also been in agreement with criticism of Classiche. I do not know why the car was not sent to Classiche.

I have no affiliation with JC or DP. Your apology is accepted.

 

Correct but I was replying to this part of this post (highlighted in blue):

In the case of a GTO replica based on a GTE the above comment is untrue.

But I do agree #0858 will never be a replica of a P4 as it once was one.
Pete

 

As I've said before some cars are too conspicuous to own. This car suffers from being so important with so many internet experts I would not want to attempt to rebuild this car into a P4. You will never get it right for all.

We saw this with #0812 that was restored/rebodied and most could find issues: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vintage-thru-365-gtc4-sponsored-redline-restorations/215382-0812-back-track.html?
Pete

 

Yes, I see. Thanks for putting it into context.

 

Ok then, lets see what the final car looks like and them perhaps this debate can start again in a more meaningful way, at the moment the car is half finished. I myself maintain the car should have have gone to Classiche.

Way I say it the debate is really about should the car have been converted back and how close with the end product actually be to a P4 in detail, not talking about shape, that will hopefully be correct but its the details.

As mentioned a few pages back the market will speak when it comes to determining a price for this car and that for me is going to be interesting.

 

This is a genuine question. This does not have a slant, jab, or anything else, its a genuine question without motive.

So for those of you so against this car being returned to P4 and calling it a replica etc...

What does that make 0846?

I am not an 0846 master of knowledge. But I would imagine 0858 retains more of its original chassis than 0846 and again, I could be wrong has been rebodied as well. But I could be way off base.

Are the two cars in a similar category? Something of the grey area in there respective categories?

 

Probably better to look for answers to that question in the 0846 debate thread.

Two very different situations though. Here there is a real piece of Ferrari's history being molested to make a profit. That to me is the bigger crime over whether the results of the effort produce something worthy of being called a P4 again.

>8^)
ER

 

On a side note whats everyone's opinion on 0860?

AFAIK this car has been treated in a similar way to 0858....converted to CanAm, rebodied with replica body to P4. I guess the engine & drivetrain is still CanAm spec. I've never heard anyone flaming PB (RIP) for doing the same thing thats now happening to its sister car.....originality fetishists please elaborate.

 

Ummmm - no. David Piper drove Ferraris in the 1960s but he is (very obviously looking at recent events) not interested in history, only value - typical second-hand car dealer, which is what he has always been. Any cars that go through his hands are tarnished by association rather than given provenance.

Just look at the cars he has owned in previous years and the stories that go with them......250LM '8165' and P2 '0836' are the only uncontroversial ones. He has two 365Ps with the same s/n '0824', neither of which now IMHO has any original parts belonging to that destroyed car; he had a GTE 'GTO' replica, a 1966-type Dino 246s, and as for Porsche 917s...........

Just because he drove them in period and has a lot of original parts and spares doesn't make him the ultimate authority on a car type - he knows what they are/were like to drive, and the tricks to running them, but that's it.

Enzo Ferrari gave 'nostra Piper' a set of P4 plans and permission to build one frame, s/n 0900, to hang all his original parts on...........and he commissioned three..........and he didn't notice one that was delivered was different to the other two and had old repaired accident damage. Nor did he know the difference between a 1966 Formula 1 gearbox and a P3 gearbox.

Whilst I have great respect for his racing history and the fact that he is still racing now, I wouldn't buy a car from him...........and if I were wealthy enough to be one of those drivers who rent his cars to race at the Goodwood Revival etc on a "you bend it, you fix it" basis, I wouldn't touch one of those cars without a countersigned and witnessed lawyer-written signed document listing inclusions and exclusions - otherwise I'd end up like poor Mark Hales.

Paul M

 

True.

 

Steve,

I can't answer for SpA, but besides the reason you cite, there are a few others, the way I look at it.

No certification because of:

Wrong tipo engine
Wrong tipo gearbox (Is the jury back on that one?)

Best,

Jack.

 

Wait and see

Maybe too many critical questions that can devalue a car?

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I think Classiche could make a new block and pistons to restore the engine size to 4.0 litres and correct tipo as well as making a new 603 gearbox if that is correct for a P4 which may be the case as per JG?

 

I hear talk about how it's not possible to return the engine to it's original state- why not? From what I read, it's been bored out (perhaps like other old Ferrari race cars we see flying around the circuit with way more horsepower than they ever had in period). Is it not possible to throw money at that problem and change it back? My naive mind is suggesting that a thicker liner would work to return the block to its original displacement, but I'm not an engine builder, so I'm only speculating.

 

Haha, the factory willing to loan the Collins/Piper P4 for an exhibition says nothing. The factory has disqualified itself after displaying a clear replica at their museum!

 

Just because they did it once before doesn't mean that it was right in the first place. Even someone like Bardinon makes mistakes.

What would people say if P3's started appearing?

I don't think when - for instance - Jim talks about restoring both his cars, that he is "obviously lacking knowledge about the restoration of these supercars".

 

Obviously there is a big difference. In the case of 0846 the originalty lies mostly in the tube framing of the chassis. By recreating the body of the car, nothing was destroyed. In the case of 0858 the recreation of the body destroys a perfectly original 350 Can am. The very last left even. You see, 'destroyed' is the keyword in all of this.

 

Nothing of the Can Am has been destroyed. Its body has been preserved and is being sold with the car.

 

The tail and doors fitted to 0846 today are 0858's original P4 tail and doors. Her nose is pounded Allegretti.

There is also the issue of proper windshield double curvature shape. Piper got that wrong a long time ago and at one time was using Lola T 70 shaped single curvature type windshields. We sourced the original correct molds and now both 0854 and 0846's windshields are now correct.

 

When was this car rebodied and by whom?

 

Piper. For some reason he had a new body made afaik in Modena by Allegretti even though he owned 0860's original spyder body which he had fitted to "0900". (The shape of 0860's original body IMO has morphed over the years)

0860 is a 350 Can Am fitted with a replica P4 body. The key IMHO will be to measure from the bottom of the roll hoop to the deck and compare that measurement with 0856's/0858 original spyder tail now on 0846/the Allegretti replica tail now on 0860 and this new Piper 0858 creation.