Replicas, why bother ??

Was it plagerism when the team rebuilt the Wright Brother's first flier a few years ago? If folks are not trying to sell it as the real thing(and I literally mean selling it), is there really a crime? How about the team that is building a Titanic replica to sail the ocean blue? I would not go on the first cruise on the thing, but I think that it is a cool way for folks to enjoy something otherwise impossible to experiance.

This subject is replayed entirely too often, but it is a fun revival of Philosophy 101 based on a subject we all love. If only my professor had found a topic subject like this that I could relate to, I might have done better than a C+.

 

A "reproduction engine block" would cost more than the real thing. The cost of making the molds and dies to create an actual working engine significantly exceeds the cost of even the most exclusive Ferrari. . . unless I'm missing something?

If you're talking about salvage parts from identical or similar original engines, that's something different. . .

 

this is the problem with the human condition. We can justify just about anything based on some convoluted reasoning. If men were angels we would not need laws. So we make laws which cannot possibly cover every situation. So the game becomes how far we can fudge the law and can we find a sympathetic judge and/or jury to bend with us?

Your intention may not be to sell it. You are not going to live forever. What about your heirs or others who come in possession of the copy? What about innocent victims in the future. If the replica does not exist, these problems never arises.

In my own case I love the old Porsche 550 Spyder. could have bought a real one but I really don't know what I am doing. Could have bought a replica and never been the wiser. but I decided to buy a Boxster S. It is a real Porsche with more horse power (315), better suspension and massive technological improvements. Much safer than the 550 Spyder and it's a real Porsche. Maybe I would have purchased a real 550 Spyder but knowing all the replicas out there I felt getting a copy was just too big a risk.

I feel the same way about art. Unless you know the artist you will never know for sure if it is a forgery. An "expert" has to give an "opinion" that it is indeed real.

IMVHO replicas and copies are not good for the originals. Making a plane or a boat for a museum is clearly not the real thing...a different kettle of fish entirely...as are scale models.

My $.02.

 

If someone buys a replica thinking it is the real thing then they are a moron for not doing their homework. If you can't tell a replica Cobra from a real one then you don't know Cobras and shouldn't be in the market for one. Same goes for any other rare car you might want to buy; you do your homework first. Innocent victims? If someone buys a 250 GTO on eBay for $100,000 thinking they got the deal of the century, then they got what they deserve.

 

A sad thing when replicas take over. When you see a Cobra you automatically assume it is a fake. Same thing now with the GTO and SWB. Too bad when these replicas ride on the coattails of the real thing. The originals become diluted. Not in monetary value but a little bit of their exclusivity and their reverie has been taken away.

 

I find the classic car market to be one of the most nonsensical things out there.

You can buy old, destroyed cars and write a check to Ferrari to restore it using non-original parts. Sure, they will maybe create the stuff from old drawings and use the same methods from the past, but so what? Original is original, no other way about it.

In what other industry does this kind of stuff fly? Re-creating a priceless roman copy of a greek statue using ancient methods and ancient stone from the same region would be relatively worthless.

Painting a copy of a famous Michelangelo work on the back of a lesser piece of his would not be of any value or interest just because it was done with an old brush of his and old paint formulas.

Why is restoring an old Ferrari from which very little might remain of any significance? It's essentially a replica. A very accurate replica maybe, but still just a replica. Who cares how it was restored if it's a hodge podge of non-original stuff?

 

I am building what could be considered a replica and I have detractors and supporters. I am building a car bases upon a very rare engine block I found in a junk yard in Arizona that appears to be an original Prototype race car W194 Mercedes gullwing block. From this bare short block I have aquired from 30 years of scrapped 300 Adenauer sedan parts all the correct components and have so far assembled a running chassis of serial #0001 Mercedes W194 prototype that no longer exists (it was scrapped by the factory) and I will endevor to build the body soon. See my website w194.com - Home

 

100%.

How much of any of the so called original old race cars are actualy the original pieces and parts. Besides the data plate. Its a snob and a value thing. I agree we should not be cutting up "original" cars to make more "desireable" recreations, but a kirkham cobra cuts up nothing original, nor does a SPF Gt40. Most bugattis are bitsas and most bentlyes are rebodies of more sedate cars, how many speed 6's do you think they made. At this point there are at least two companies making ferrari v12 blocks and gearcases.

How original is any old wooden boat or ww2 fighter. In fact no one on the old boat movement bats an eyse at a replica, they applaud the creation of another work of art, same with aeroplanes.

I dont think Cobra replicas have debased the "real" thing they have enhanced its appeal, you know top of the pyramid.

Now as to cars, if we are into the thing for what its is, ie experiencing the machine, then a recreation keeps the vision of the machine alive and allows more people to enjoy it. Pretty much no repliacted car is a one off, its more like more copies of famous photographs are being printed, think ansell adams. In any event while cars are art, they are motive art, like a steam train is motive art, essentialy series production items built by skilled artisans to a bueprint design, not aone off work of one person, they are therefore replicatable and quite different to a one off oil canvas which was the product of one artist.

I think its in everyones interest that recreations are acceted into the ranks of equilvalent old builds. That way we can ensure other limited prod old cars are not cut up for recreations and there can be standards to acceptable build. Lastly by using and racing recreations the driver is freer to use the machine as designed and intended. Those few surviving historc pieces can be saved fpr posterity.

Its all win win win. We keep the skills alive to build and maintain the cars. the cars can be raced and driven in anger without fear of damaging a priceless old period artifact, the experience is more authentic for drivers and spectators, and old cars are saved from being cut up, while the priceless artifacts are preserved for posterity. Plus recreations expands the fan base driving up values of old builds.

If anything has been a danger and a curse to the old car movement its been auction houses and investment, which took old cars from being a hobby appreciated by those who really knew and understood what the machine was into some type of investment wealth demonstartion product.

 

Yep,include Daytona Spiders,Lotus Cortina's,Mini Cooper S's and for the Aussie market the following:Falcon GTHO'S,Torana XU1's.With those last 2,the prices being asked for replica's are off the planet,FFS I've seen a replica GTHO at $68K!

I,though,don't have a problem with something tangible being made out of a rusty front engine Ferrari 'family' car that,due to the cost of restoration,would be uneconomical in the resale situation.Whether to produce a replica or one off,would be the question.

 

Contradictory statements here. The current generation is constrained by laws and regulations in terms of the products they can build.

If a company has talent it can create new iconic products. Enzo was always interested in the next car, not the last one, many of which were crushed to make storage room. That companies now create nothing of note, mining historic cues to sell image to poseur consumers of branded products is the real crime.,

 

I understand that Classique is casting new blocks, I could be wrong.

 

There are some people who really need to get over themselves here. Sure there are some people who build replicas to try and fool people and they are muppets . But not any bigger muppets than those who buy a real Ferrari just because they are expensive and all of their friends have them.

If you have a passion for cars you should be able to appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into a well done car of any style. I've been to car shows with everything from exotics to import tuner cars to low riders and the cars that are well executed stand out. There are plenty of hack jobs too but those people love their cars too. Huge metal flake with a crazy mural, crushed velvet interior, gold Dayton's and polished stainless hydraulic plumbing isn't my cup of tea but if its well done and works together that's a cool car. Some of you remind me of the bar hopping RUBS (rich urban bikers) that never ride more than 15 miles at a stretch and won't ride with someone not on a Harley.

Back to replicas. You build a replica, you don't buy one from someone else. The reason the industry exists is so you can say "I built it, it's an xxx yyy." You have someone else paint it or do the interior because those are very specialized and very hard to get right but you had better turn a wrench or two. If you have $50k burning a hole in your pocket and just want to write a check get a 348.

Last all of the Cobra kits, to me, make it that much more special to encounter a real one. I look at every car and look for giveaways. If I don't see any obvious ones I'll ask the owner. One time, it was the real deal, even though 5 people around me said it was a fake. Carrol Shelby was at this show and the owner introduced me to him.

 

+1

 

I'm of two minds when it comes to replicas. Trying to pass one off as real is clearly unacceptable and cutting up something precious to make it into a replica of an even rarer and more valuable car is a tragedy.

On the other hand, Cobra replicas are a great way to build a sports car in your shed (or order a rolling chassis and finish it yourself). Especially in the US where things like Ariel Atoms aren't typically street legal AFAIK. Namely something like a Kirkham which is easy to tell from the real thing due to the longer wheelbase. I must confess a certain fondness for the idea of using modern engine/transmission in such a car. A Kirkham with a modern Ford 5.0 DOHC V8 (or even the blown 5.8L from the GT500 if you want to be completely insane) and a 6-speed manual is a car I'd love to have at my disposal.

 

I am not sure you know what a Kirkham is. But its a nut and bolt toolroom copy down to the diff castings, just way better built, they all seem to be done with original style but new cast 427 side oilers.

Maybe you are thinking of factory 5 or something, two different animals that share a silouette.

Interesting that the 5.0 cyote is a much larger and a heavier engine than a 427 in aluminun, although it is smoother.

 

Just my bad memory, I was thinking of BackDraft Racing. Their Cobras have a 2" stretch and use a multi-link IRS.

 

Interesting possibility. I wasn't aware of that.

 

Classiche is making tipo 128-series blocks, but my understanding is that it is on a very limited basis; you can't just ring up Classiche and buy a block. I believe you have to either have a car going thru the Classiche certification process whose motor is in such bad repair that a new one must be made, or the original motor is gone and the wrong tipo has been installed. I also understand that if you are the "right" clientele, Ferrari will make one for your car. This is hearsay, but I have been hearing this from several sources.

The problem for old GTEs and PF Coupes that would otherwise be viable restoration candidates is that Classiche purportedly charges about $60k for a new block; this ensures that the community of replica makers and the guys who vintage-race their real 250 SWBs will always be on the hunt for the derelict GTEs that could be restored, but have become nothing more than carrying cases for their motors which will either go into a replica or become a racing spare. The only saving grace in the past year for these restoration candidates, is that the prices for good examples have significantly increased, hopefully making more financial sense to restore than chop up, at least for the moment.

 

Not meaning to speak for Bryan and the other vintage guys, but I think you summed up their objections in one sentence. Outside of that, we are mostly car guys, not snobs. A cool car is a cool car regardless of its DNA, and a POS will always be a POS no matter how much money gets poured into it.

Like I said, I happen to think that the Cal Spider is one of the greatest looking sports cars ever built. But I have a confession. The goofy fog lights have to go. So if I were gonna do a recreation, I would combine the best of the Cal Spider with the 250 PF cab. I'd also make it so I would fit.

As just another example, I recall someone here penned a modern reinterpretation of a 250 GTO on a 599 body. I don't know if it would look right in the flesh. but on paper it was one good looking mama.

Dale

 

I need to keep that "not this sh!# again" picture handy.

I'll post this one instead. 5 years to build and much work to do. Incredible learning experience, incredible driving experience, unmatched satisfaction. No idea how much I have spent on it, no concern about how much it is worth. And absolutely no concern for what anyone else thinks. It's certainly not for everyone; if you don't get it you just won't get it.
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Cool looking car. Can you hook up your iThingy? Just kidding...

Dale

 

Gorgeous!

 

Actually, "Re-creating a priceless roman copy of a greek statue using ancient methods and ancient stone from the same region would be ..." forgery, if you tried to sell it.

But more broadly:

The market already accounts for originality, and it actually does make sense:

A vintage Ferrari (or Porsche, or Jaguar, etc.) that is largely original is worth more than one brought back from the dead. You can't re-create originality.
A vintage Ferrari with racing history is worth more than one without it. You can't buy history. It was there, or it wasn't.
A Ferrari restored by Ferrari using Ferrari parts isn't original, but it is a Ferrari and has value as such.
A Ferrari-shaped body on something I built in my garage isn't a Ferrari. It may fool the neighbors, or sound good, but ultimately the market recognizes that it's nothing significant.

The thread title sums up the market's opinion on fakes.

 

I agree. Not really a fan of all the retro cues -- not just Ferrari, but other carmakers have been pretty shameless.

It's not that they appropriated a design they didn't own, but it does feel like cash grab based on limited imagination for what's next, as you say.

 

You just can't please everyone. I'm sure the car snobs would also ridicule anyone who drove a genuine vintage Ferrari on the streets. They would say "my God he is adding miles on that work of art, and look at the rock chips!". Come on people, I can see the need for replicas - even among those who can afford the real thing.

I recently contemplated buying a vintage Bugatti racer replica... yes I don't have a million dollars to buy the real thing, but if I did I wouldn't drive it around every weekend either. So why even own the real one? I want to enjoy strapping on my goggles, leather helmet, and tooling around town on a Sunday... can't do that in such a historic piece (if you can even locate one for sale).