360 Cold Start Stumble and Rough Idle | Page 3 | FerrariChat

360 Cold Start Stumble and Rough Idle

Discussion in '360/430' started by dsevo, Jun 13, 2007.

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  1. blkdiablo33

    blkdiablo33 F1 Rookie

    Jul 12, 2004
    4,351
    i will try over the week end will be driving her about 300 miles.its very embarising whne it starts like that
     
  2. MamoVaka

    MamoVaka Formula 3

    Jul 31, 2006
    1,409
    Los Angeles, CA
    Full Name:
    Pano S.
    Happens to me, seems to be related to when the battery dies.. which is after 7 days when I do not use the car..

    or if I turn off the bettery kill switch..

    then it doesnt happen if I use the car more often..

    I wouldn't worry about it
     
  3. flipdowt

    flipdowt Karting

    Dec 13, 2008
    204
    Mahopac,New York
    Full Name:
    John Flip
    i used techron injector cleaner and fuel stabilizer and it seems the rough idle went away. i tried it after 2 months of no starting due to cold weather but kept a battery tender on and it starts great. maybe the gas needs to be treated ?
     
  4. jjsaustin

    jjsaustin Formula Junior

    May 11, 2008
    579
    Austin, TX
    Full Name:
    Jim
    I think it's the injector cleaner. I always had my car on a tender and drove it atleast once a week, but still aftr a year it developed the rough idel on cold starts.

    After using the injector cleaner I got rid of my rough idle. Now I only use gas that has techron to keep the injectors clean on and ongoing basis. Before I would put any premium gas in the car.
     
  5. wilsemail

    wilsemail Karting

    Sep 30, 2007
    76
    Anaheim, California
    #55 wilsemail, Mar 12, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2010
    I've been thinking about this. Don't try to fix this. My conclusion to this phenomenon is that it was created by Ferrari to prevent cold start dry overrevving. Everytime I start the engine when it's warm it quickly revs high for a second. Ferrari probably doesn't want the engine to do this quick rev when it's cold, so it electronically stumples it. (Kind of like rev limiting) Haven't you noticed that when it's cold there's no oil pressure for a little while? Ferrari probably doesn't allow it's cold engine to do a fast rev when it hasn't been started in a while to prevent it from wear. I truly believe this disrupted cold start protects your engine from completing a no oil pressure rev spike that Ferrari/Bosch has designed it to do only when the engine is warm or already has oil pressure.
     
  6. blkdiablo33

    blkdiablo33 F1 Rookie

    Jul 12, 2004
    4,351
    hmm ,so if others used fuel inj cleaner and it helped so that means the injector possibly develop build up which causes a leaky injector?i put techron additve and filled her up 2xs today will see how it works out,drove close to 300 miles of mostly all spirted a few xs speedo hit 160 of course on a closed track rangreat.,360 is just an awsome built car.
     
  7. wilsemail

    wilsemail Karting

    Sep 30, 2007
    76
    Anaheim, California
    I don't believe that fuel injector cleaner fixed the problem. Mainly because I don't think it's a problem. (My current opinion, so far.) Maybe they didn't wait long enough or there was still oil pressure in the system. I personally wouldn't use any of those cleaners in my fuel system with the catalytic converters being soooo expensive. My car has almost 70K miles on it and the injectors are fine. These cars are tough. Quit with the chemicals. Use the Shell, Chevron or Union 76 premium fuels and you'll have a safe enough level of cleaners to do the job. Driving it fast and exercising it regularly is the best you can do. The only ignition problem I've ever get is the coils. They periodically get old and crack causing shorts to the valve cover. But the check engine light comes on and you can feel the misfire. 2 so far in 70K miles. (1999)
     
  8. blkdiablo33

    blkdiablo33 F1 Rookie

    Jul 12, 2004
    4,351
    do you get the the rough idle start also?
     
  9. wilsemail

    wilsemail Karting

    Sep 30, 2007
    76
    Anaheim, California
    Yes, I do. Everytime it's cold or when I haven't started it in a while.
     
  10. delta2210

    delta2210 Karting

    Aug 15, 2009
    128
    Las Vegas
    Full Name:
    Jason
    I bought a 1999 360 with 12k miles about 8 months ago. It had the rough idle on cold starts just about every start. It was very disconcerting.

    I had the throttle bodies cleaned at the local f-shop. I cleaned the MAFs, very easy. It got a little better after all that. Then, I had the spark plugs changed (original ones) which helped a lot. I also ran the techron through it. Now, it does it only about every 5th or 6th cold start. Other times, starts up perfectly.

    I put up a post of how to clean the MAFs. You need a special torx bit and a bottle of $6 MAF cleaner from autozone. Be sure to do it far away from your car. Wear eye protection. MAF cleaner is bad for eyes and paint.

    I do think this rough idle is just the way these cars are, though I don't think it should do it every time. Doesn't really make sense, but the condition can be improved.

    I think the OP has the same problem I had, which was a car that had not been driven much. I believe that my car had some gummed up injectors, dirty TBs and MAFs, as well as old, dirty spark plugs. If a car is driven regularly, that gunk gets knocked off and does not get so stuck to the surfaces. Really, just a maintenance issue.

    Oh, I also changed the air filters, which were the original ones. Only 12k miles, but 10 years is old for air filters. Those things break down over time.

    Probably the best solution is to drive the car all the time. From reading fchat a good bit, these cars seem to like to have 6 or 7k miles every year, unlike other ferraris that seem not to mind sitting in the garage for most of their life. I do find it interesting that the 430 has this issue as well.
     
  11. blkdiablo33

    blkdiablo33 F1 Rookie

    Jul 12, 2004
    4,351
    i had throtle bodies claned and mafs,it was good for about 2 months or so.im going to leave it alone for the time being and go from there.
     
  12. Longgone

    Longgone Rookie

    Jul 17, 2011
    1
    Above said drove car at 160mph at the track, sure.
    Above said has 70,000 miles---Bravo, drive it till its tongue drags the ground!

    Is the rough start a low battery, Maf, air sensor, not driving it enough, maybe-doubt it.
    If its rough-press gas pedal slightly to 1500RPM--smooths out, yes?
    Problem is the cheapo gasoline ethanol or wrong pump octane-to check octane/verify
    pump one gallon stop, it should be the correct dollar amount if not you are being sold
    a lower octane. Report them to the manufacturer(Exxon, Shell, Chevron etc).

    So what is the real problem--injectors. Have owned most all of the high performane
    cars and is typical after awhile. I use the fuel injector cleaning product BG-expensive yes,
    it works GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. BG can be hard to find ,but worth the search. Pour some into
    a smaller easy to use container and carry it with your car. I found all other products to
    be inferior/weak imitations.

    Had a Ferrari 250GT many moons ago--dealer could not determine why car always
    stumbled at 120mph(burned valves-no, spark plugs etc-no) a factory engineers was
    in town drove it said push pedal to floor-stumble goes away. I still laugh when I
    recall it 40+ years later.
     
  13. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    37,984
    Clarksville, Tennessee
    Full Name:
    Terry H Phillips
    I think the problem hits many late model Ferraris. My 575M does it and my MAF sensors are clean as a whistle. The temporary fix for it is the double start. Ignition key to on, Check OK illuminated, start and as soon as she lights, turn key off. Next start will be a normal cold start to high idle.

    Cause, my techs and I believe, is injector bleed-down. The double start pumps up the injector. Viton seals may help cure the problem and the injector cleaners mentioned above will definitely help.

    http://www.fuelinjectorconnection.com/shop/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=124

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
     
  14. lndshrk

    lndshrk Formula Junior

    Nov 7, 2003
    753
    SLC, Utah
    Full Name:
    Jim Conforti
    To determine the battery condition simply - find, beg, borrow/etc a decent DVOM w/ a "Fast Min/Max Function"

    Connect to battery, insert key (do not turn), engage "Fast Min/Max" mode - start car - wait a few minutes and read the min and max.

    If the min is lower that 10.2v - the battery is on it's way out.

    If it's under 10.0 volts - new battery time.

    Once your battery is out of the way...

    The next thing is programming - some cars need revised programming to fix the idle issue.

    Last thing is FUEL - I found that my car HATED Exxon non-oxygenated fuel - and it LOVES Chevron Supreme w/ 10% Ethanol.

    Go figure.

    So if your car isn't running right - try a different brand, different station of gas.

    My (F430) starting problem was 10-20% battery and 80-90% fuel.

    BTW - there is a lot of misinfo about the battery switch.

    If you turn it off... when you turn it on there is a VERY SPECIFIC procedure to follow.

    This is the proper F430 procedure - Both from my manual, my dealer techs, and experience in actually DOING it. There is a method to my madness here peeps, it's not ALL just madness ;)

    Starting with a "cold" vehicle - windows down - battery switch disconnected.

    0) Make sure A/C, lights, etc is ALL turned off completely - no loads on motor AT ALL.

    1) Reconnect battery switch

    2) Lock and unlock your car with the key (because the doors are unlocked, but the alarm is usually engaged - red LED flashing)

    3) Turn key to ON, do not start

    4) Wait a minimum of 10 seconds - I wait 20.
    (during this time you can turn off the radio - which is asking for a code)

    This recalibrates the adaptation on the electronic throttles - BTW.

    5) Start car

    6) Let car run until cooling fans come on - then go back off - takes up to 18 minutes.

    7) Turn off car and wait a few minutes for the DME to power itself down - I wait 5 min.

    8) Start, drive, and enjoy your car.

    There is no need whatsoever in doing this every nite, or every week - or every anything. If you want to do that for winter storage, with a trickle on the battery, sure - but DAILY?
     
  15. SfefVan

    SfefVan Guest

    Nov 28, 2008
    1,370
    Switzerland
    Full Name:
    Stef
    Fully agree with Taz. The idle issues are mainly related to dirtly injectors, injectors bleed-down and/or contaminated O2 sensors.

    As mentionned above, BG Prod are very good products. Use regulary, at service intervals, the famous BG 44K which will keep your injectors, valves, combustion chamber, o2 sensors and cats clean. I would recommend also their BG Mass Air Flow Sensor Cleaner and you'll never have to replace a MAF ;).
     
  16. lndshrk

    lndshrk Formula Junior

    Nov 7, 2003
    753
    SLC, Utah
    Full Name:
    Jim Conforti
    #66 lndshrk, Jul 19, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2011
    Terry,

    If this is their belief, it's a simple verification - put fuel pressure gauges on the rails.

    also, injector bleed down will cause a "wet" start - lots of "gas smell".

    It's easy to do a FP test on the rails - if pressure is lost, it's either thru the injectors or back thru a check valve. Easy to identify
     
  17. Chiaroman

    Chiaroman Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 21, 2004
    1,657
    New Jersey
    Been reading about the "putt putt" start issue.

    Had car in since October (2004 360) never was an issue until lately on first start of day.

    Car is in for major now.

    Is this "issue" mechanical or is it esthetic?

    I mean if it only happens on the first start of the day in the garage and is causing no harm to any parts or systems at all then can we all be a little less anal and "fugetaboutit"??

    :)

    Yours,

    Tom
     
  18. chipbiii

    chipbiii F1 Veteran
    Rossa Subscribed

    Mar 26, 2008
    9,736
    SC
    Full Name:
    chipb
    My 2004 360 Spider occasionally does the same thing after an extended interval. I just think it's sleepy and needs to wake up after a few seconds.
     
  19. Valor

    Valor Rookie

    Jun 9, 2011
    40
    SGP
    Full Name:
    Vincent™
    is your A/C set to a very high setting when you ignite the engine? Has 2 P cars before and the engine always stumbles for a few seconds from a cold start every morning which only happens with the A/C set quite high but never happens with the A/C off.
     
  20. Nathan360

    Nathan360 Karting

    Apr 17, 2010
    154
    Manchester / England
    Full Name:
    Nathan
    Just to provide some reassurance / balance with another experience.

    I didn't know about this procedure so I didn't do any of it on when reconnecting the battery on my 360.

    Turn switch (I used to leave bonnet popped up, so I didn't have to leave windows down a bit)
    Open doors with fob
    Get in + turn key
    Wait till screen shows OK (1 second)
    Start and drive straight away.

    In spite of missing every instruction, I never had a problem! I've probably done it 20 times. YMMV

    Now I do try to wait 10 seconds once I've seen the OK notice on the dash as I can believe the DK motors etc. are syncing. The engine is noticeably better the next time I start it so its still learning something.


    On the rough idle, I have deduced that I have never had it if I start the car within 16 hours of stopping it, and also have never had it if I've been using a battery tender.

    Look, the cars are telling us something
    "USE ME EVERY DAY"

    Nath
     
  21. blkdiablo33

    blkdiablo33 F1 Rookie

    Jul 12, 2004
    4,351
    has anyone ever had a 100% fix for this
     
  22. Chiaroman

    Chiaroman Formula 3
    Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 21, 2004
    1,657
    New Jersey
    I took the car out and went highway driving for about four hours.

    Never had the problem again.

    I know...anecdotal evidence but hey...it was fun AND it worked!!!

    :)

    Tom
     
  23. testdrv321

    testdrv321 Formula Junior

    Oct 31, 2010
    259
    Long Island, NY
    Full Name:
    Edward Newman
    Most cars do this. They start up and after a few seconds engage the egr to manage the emissions. It then hunts for a little while until it settles down. It's just more pronounced on the Ferrari, especially the CS because of the big cam and loud exhaust.
     
  24. 360michael

    360michael Rookie

    Feb 21, 2013
    10
    Melbourne, Australia
    Apologies for bringing up an old thread, however I wanted to share my experience with this..
    After owning my 360 for approx 3 months, my car began to have issues as described here. ie sounded like it was running on 4 cylinders for 5 to 10 seconds when starting after being left overnight. Once warm would start fine. This problem occurred without fail, every time I started the engine cold.
    After replacing MAF's, and cleaning throttle bodies, the problem persisted. I tried a bottle of another brand of fuel injector cleaner (not the one mentioned previously in this thread), same issue.
    A couple of weeks ago I decided to try the techron 5000 as suggested. To my disbelief the car has started cold perfectly every time since! Not sure what the magic ingredient is, however if you've tried another fuel injector cleaner and it hasnt fixed your problem, hunt this down. I am of course in no way affiliated with caltex, simply wanting to share my experience.
    Thanks to the guys on this forum that have solved my problem. If not for this I would probably be changing oxygen sensors and throttle bodies by now!
     
  25. up4speed

    up4speed F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Feb 16, 2012
    3,543
    Long Island, NY
    Full Name:
    Chris
    Ray,
    I noticed the EXACT same behavior. Here is a thread that I started on it:
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/360-430/409134-i-have-lumpy-idle-figured-out-pattern-i-would-like-hear-your-thoughts.html

    I would like to hear your thoughts on it.
     

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