Replicas, why bother ??

Here is the differentiator as I see it.
If shelby had continued making the cobra as morgan has, then even a broad a copy of the shape grill etc would have been theft. Where the design was abandoned and no longer registered, if it ever was then the shape could be repliacted.

If you let your patent lapse or never had a patent, people can make the product of your idea, and maybe its not creative but its not theft.

If the tile had said "Cheap knock-off replica cars coming from China", then there may be outrage simply because a cheap knockoff of something in production is very different. A cheap product from China implies a product built to a much lower standard, thertefore not the real thing. If it came from Japan or switzerland the implication would be different.

A cheap recreation, well we have those already from Argentina and South Africa. I dont care how inexpensive labor is in China, if you are really going to recrreate a bugatti or GT40 its going to be expensive.

If you are going to copy a handbag, there is a difference between copying a Vutton or Gucchi in production item with their symbol on it, or making a 1935 bugatti that does not say bugatti on it. There are clear points of differentiation here, you dont like recreations so choose to take a very strong stand on a very gray line for you own personal emotional reasons.

Better get used to recreations, there are going to be more and more, and if Ferrari could figure out in terms of legislation how to do it, they would. In fact if manufacturers could figure out how to make viceral machines there would probably be a much smaller market for recreations, but as you point out the majority likes anodyne cars with DCT transmissions, so the rest of us likes recreations. In other words we like the choice of cars more as they used to be, you know when it took skill and balls to drive them fast, when fake drivers need not apply..Or put anbother way, machines that only real drivers could operate or want to own.

 

I've never owned a Jaguar, and sold my Ferrari -- not sure where you're getting your information (?)

Taking your last point first: If a car looks like something it isn't, and requires an explanation, it's deceptive. That's not a rare occurrence. It's the default situation. People assume. You don't have to lie. Easy.

On the concours point and comparison to Europe, I agree, though not sure what it has to do with this thread. My Speedster had rust and racing dents like they all do, so I had it restored, it took a third at a recent concours, and now I drive the thing at redline and parked it over at the local woodfired pizza place last weekend when I met up with a friend from FChat who was in town. Didn't need a replica. I have something called "insurance". Replicas: why bother?

With regard to Aston DB4 Zagatos... if Aston Martin sanctions a car, it's not a replica/fake. If I build one in my garage, it is a replica/fake. Not complicated.

With regard to the Lynx, it's a knockoff of the XK-SS. I have no idea whether Lynx compensated Jaguar, but regardless it's kind of a dumb car, IMHO, because for the work and money they could have made something infinitely safer, faster and better performing. You can drive a Lynx to work every day and you haven't driven a Jaguar. Again: "Replicas, why bother?" Just get a T-shirt saying you can't afford a real XK-SS, can't appreciate the difference, and be done with it.

On the Superformance GT40, again, what's the point? It's not a GT40, and Ford actually made a street legal GT in 2005 if you want a fast Ford with that styling. If you're asking my opinion, I'd spend the money on a Ferrari 512 BBi or something real. Legalities aside, I just have zero interest in making excuses or "explaining" my cars to someone.

Remember, the thread title: "Replicas, why bother?" It's not "Replicas: Let's crush their cars because they're a bunch of pathetic fakes." That first quote really summed it up for me. What is the point of dressing a car up to look like something else?

(That said, I agree with The Mayor -- theft is theft, and I suspect many or most replicas could be challenged on legal grounds.)

 

The difference between a Aston sanctioned Zagato and one built by RS Williams is, none, as RS williams built the santion 2. The difference though is in value, the aston sanction adds value. Theya re alla AStons as they all started with a DB4 which was chopped/rebodied. You see its gray are.

The SPF GT40's are GT40's you see theya re licensed and even have continuation numbers.

Anyone who knows anything about cars, can tell which are old builds and which are new builds. True some recreations are so good they would fool and expert and some have in a sale, but that is fraud.

If My 1966 GT40 burns to a crisp, but I still own the dtata plate serial number so build a new car and attach the provenance to that is it OK, but cause a real GT40 just sold for a great price and it was no ore than a data plate. In fact most of the old racers ahve few if any period bits left.

As to fords street legal GT, it was really copying the design to which someone esle had the rights, so was that theft, or were the rights only tot he GT 40 name and the design rights had lapsed. Also the ford GT is a very different animal to drive than GT40. And that is the point for many of us, we could care less about the snobbery part, we are interested in these vehicles for the drive. And I already have a BBI, but will be doing a GT40 next, because its faster harder and you can track it with impunity. Maybe if there were no pseed limits and I only drove an the street i would stop at the BBi, but the world has changed, and I still want to drive a viceral fun car at the limit with a mean V8, and I am not looking for adownforce 4 cyl lighteweight which is amodern track car..

True I cant appreciate the difference between a "real" xkss and a lynx because from a build, machine and functional perspective there is none. The only difference is the provenance of an old build adds greater value which I respect, although at 500k a lynx is hardley cheap.

Those that drive and race good recreations are the same as those enthusiasts who saved to unloved race cars years ago, whgen they were just obsolete tin, but valued by those few for what they were as opposedf to wht they represented to others.

As to people assumptions, if you see one of the greats on the road, the assumption is its some type of copy, when you look up close the interest is in how well it is done. The owners of the real cars could care less, as has been said by those who know, most have recrerations anyway. In my book if you have real old build and are worried people dont know how expensive it is, then you own it for the wrong reasons.

 

Fake is fake.

Real is real.

The owners of the real cars bought the real cars because they know the difference. The longer I'm at the classic car game, the more I appreciate the differences.

 

I too have gotten off topic. So here's my answer to the question (this refers to BUILDING YOUR OWN, not buying something someone else assembled or put together):

1. Incredible learning experience.
2. The journey is every bit as much as the enjoyment of the finished product, and it doesn't seem to ever end. Even better when enjoyed with another (my father and I built our FFR Cobra replica together and it was a priceless experience).
3. 1960's experience with modern upgrades.
4. Relatively inexpensive (we probably have 50k in the Cobra, I probably have 100k in the GT40) to build, very inexpensive to service.
5. Absolutely ZERO stigma from the general public. There are numerous threads about people who dislike the reaction from other people when driving a Ferrari; the reaction from a replica is so positive that I have literally thought about telling everyone my 355 is a kit.

Personally, I think the idea that replicas devalue the originals is hogwash. The sliver of humanity that even gives a happy crap is so small that it is almost embarrassing to even get upset about it. There is no real financial damage to any owner of an original Cobra, GT40, 250 GTO, or any other car (assuming they don't buy a misrepresented car, which is clearly wrong) from replicas. The thousands of Cobra replicas hasn't dropped the price of an original one spec, it has only increased the public's awareness of the existence of the cars. Talk about first world problems, this one isn't even on the radar in the first world.

BTW, Shelby didn't even design the Cobra, AC did. To say it is his is like saying if I jam an LS7 in a GT40 shell it's my design and no one else can do it. Which is exactly what I did

 

Exactly. Anyone here in the UK who refers to the AC Cobra as the Shelby Cobra would be barred from the pub...

 

For those of you who believe that 911s sell Pepper cars, this is from today's WSJ:

Dale

 

So you differentiate the value of replica based on whether or not the company has filed some paper work?

The only difference between Michelangelo and Ferrari is that Ferrari has some paperwork filed that say they have legal rights to something. That's it. Absolutely no difference. To value these things differently makes no sense whatsoever.

 

So what happens if all you have is a few components of an original car and decide you want the car to look exactly the same, but can't source any of the other components? Is it a replica if I just stick a bunch of components of other cars underneath the skin?

You are entitled to fix your car. You can't stop someone from fixing their car with whatever components they want.

 

I have been cheated.

We all have been cheated

I believe I have only seen two real 427 Cobras in my life. I know they were real because they were at auctions.

I have probably seen 2 or 3 hundred replica 427's. Well I THINK they were replicas because its human nature to think so when there are so many out there.

Maybe a few that i saw and assumed were fakes were real and I just blew them off as some kind of backyard garage project.

If so, I've been robbed of that experience as I just don't give a crap anymore about seeing one of the all time great sports cars go down the road.

Replicas have turned the 427 Cobra from something exciting to see into something boring to see.

I've been robbed. We've all been robbed.

 

My brother and I thought about building a replica Cobra. Never got it off the ground. Recently, I thought it might be cool to find an old Ferrari 308/348/355 with a blown engine and drop a BMW M3 V8 in there instead... just think! The 8750 RPM redline without the maintenance!

 

Why is such a copy of the Mona Lisa any different than unoriginal paint on an original car?

 

How would that be a replica?

 

Well, all you have left is a couple body panels and two wheels and part of a headrest. You can't get original parts because they don't make them any more and/or are too expensive, so instead of the original engine, you use a modern v8, etc.

How much of a car has to be original to not be a replica? How is a restoration using non-original parts different than a replica using a single, insignificant original part like a rear view mirror or a single wheel?

 

Ferrari: A car made by Ferrari

Not a Ferrari: A car made by someone who isn't Ferrari.

A ground-up restoration doesn't result in a very original Ferrari, and it won't have the market value of an original preserved car, but it is a Ferrari.

A good example that you could read up on is the MGB. All of the body tooling from the old Abingdon plant was recovered and has been used to fabricate all replacement metal for the MGB, so that any rusty B can be brought back to life as long as there's a donor chassis. But to answer your question it's possible to take a car in formerly terminal condition and reconstruct it as a genuine MGB.

 

There are a million guys out there claiming to be Jesus. Wear the white robes, talk the talk.. even might have some scars on their palms... but I have yet to see the real one walk on water.

Good test for a replica.

I've always thought a real car was defined by a VIN and assembly plate. No VIN#, not the real car. Factory always knows how many were made.

If you have a rusted 12 inch plate of metal attached to the vin plate, then that's the remains of the car. I'd presume that it's not a replica as long as a car is built to the best of ability possible to that piece of metal. Anything different is a replica and not the "real" car.

Like any value to something, the collective market decides... I'm partial to Pontiac Fiero replicas. Always wanted to jump one and splode' it. Just as a statement.

 

I don know if you've been robbed of the opportunity to see another real one because you didn't take 1 minute to look at a car and determine if it was a real Cobra or not. You made that choice. Lets say you we were talking about 1953 & 54 Corvettes. Those 2 years there were about 4000 made and at first glance they are very similar. Lets say the first 1953 off the production line was at a show and you've seen several hundred of them over the years so you stroll past without a glance. You've just walked by the first Corvette ever made and an extremely valuable car. Is that the owners fault for not having a sign up saying "Hey Look Corvette #1!"

If you only look at cars that are mega valuable you are going to miss a lot of really cool cars and miss out on talking to a lot of very cool people.

 

Uh... yah. Is a die cast model the same as the real car?

I have no idea why you guys think it's something horrible for some guy in China to knock off an Apple Iphone look and call it an Orange Ephone but when it comes to a car, it's no big deal.

You can't have it both ways.

 

Are you listening to yourself? Cry me a river.

 

That doesn't sound at all ridiculous to you?

What if you had 5 replicas and just swapped the rusted piece of metal and vin plate to a different one each day? They would suddenly change from real to replica?

 

Oh, poor baby. I hurt your feelings.

 

No. You apparently have been cheated and robbed. I have seen a 289 Cobra, a 427 Cobra, and dozens of replicas. I built my own replica and thoroughly enjoyed the whole process. I have therefore enjoyed Cobras much more than you have. I'm sorry you feel somehow cheated by what others do (that doesn't actually affect you in any way that I can see, unless you owned a Cobra that somehow dropped in value when I put mine on the road).

I have never seen a "fake" car. I don't even know what a fake car would be. Maybe one carved out of a block of wood that isn't a real car? No, I've seen that too and it was "real" for what it was. Funny how the replicas are ruining your life while improving mine. I guess it all balances out.

Rick

 

How would it be any different than if you lived next door to someone with a real one that you saw every day?

You feel robbed because you choose to. Would you feel robbed if you had just bought an Enzo and then Ferrari sold one to every single person in your neighborhood?

 

That's what the poor guy down the street said when he stole my TV: It all evens out.