Are Nurburgring times really that relevant?

Comparing Pro drivers to other's is silly.

 

There were a few pro drivers lapping that day, they were invited by the organizers of the track day.

 

I think a lot fairer comparison would be you and me.

MMM. You bring your La Ferrari and I'll bring road P 4/5 C.

 

I like seeing the ring times as how cars from earlier generations fair against today's models.

Even from different makes.

So a new m3 relates to what Porsche from yesteryear...

Or the vantage pitted against the 10 year older 355...

Robb

 

OP--

Harry Metcalfe owns a Zonda.

He's also obsessed with Pagani, and has probably logged more journalist hours in Horacio's cars than any other writer.

I love EVO, and I equally love Metcalfe's work, but he channels a little bit of Nurburgring zen each time he picks up his keychain.

Argument dismissed.

 

Partially, but even a pro pilot in an Enzo on the street is not going to be eating any GT3s/Stradales/Turbos.

BTW, we did the same in an Enzo racing Porsche cups cars at Laguna Seca. All bets are off with a pro pilot who knows the track.

 

Owned.

 

That was just one occasion and the fact that Schumacher was driving was never confirmed officially. The other occasion I can think of was that stupid publicity stunt with De Simone behind the wheel of the 599XX. Other than that Ferrari rarely goes there and they do the majority of their tests at Fiorano and Mugello. Also they provide Fiorano lap times which shows what really interests them.

I believe that Ring times are irrelevant as it's more of a road course with some pretty uneven tarmac than a real track. It is just too long and bumpy for meaningful comparison as weather conditions, driver errors due to the length, and bad surface make it nigh on impossible to achieve the maximum that any supercar can give. For comparison purposes I would go to Monza, Spa, Suzuka or Silverstone.

 

Laptimes are mostly for fanboys to justify which car in their eyes is best.

Pretty damn pointless, I couldn't care less if it did the ring in 7 minutes or 8. As long as the car gives me the enjoyment that I like...

There's always someone with a quicker car. You buy a car that does the ring in 7.10 and some child comes and say ''if you spend xxxxxxx less you could've bought car XYZ...and it's quicker!!''

Yawn.

 

Nope they often test different model camo'd Ferrari's at the Ring as many spy photos prove.

They also market at the Ring as they did with the California.

Drop-top on the 'Ring: Schumi Takes the Ferrari California on the Track - WOT on Motor Trend

 

Absolutely right on! Not sure what an owner of a P1, LaFerrari or 918 says when a Radical or most other track-prepped cars goes flying by at the Ring. Really the only thing they can say is "I have the fastest production car at the Ring" whatever that means.

Even a Porsche 956 did it in 6:11 30 years ago!

I think the most impressive part of the P1, LaFerrari and 918 is how fun, engaging and usable they are for the street. I guess we'll know soon.

 

Ferrari/McLaren/Porsche and other manufactures all care as evidenced by all of them clearly stating about where they think they'll be around The Ring.

As MANY of these cars will never be driven except from the garage to an occasional party, dinner or event as evidenced by 800 mile F40's many owners do want to be able to say they their car's Ring times are better than other's as driving them doesn't interest them and bragging about them is the thrill.

 

I think the 'Ring times are very relevant. I have done about 250 laps of the 'Ring and it has absolutely everything to test a car in every which way.

A wonderful place that once you know the layout and what section/corner is coming up is very rewarding. Only issue is that if you balls it up there is very little runoff on much of the lap and costs can be quite high depending on how much Armco you demolish or god forbid you get a track closure on your behalf.

I always think that anything under 9 minutes is pretty quick so when I read of 8:00 and under it just blows me away. Particularly if it is a production car.

 

I think flagship cars like the LAF/P1/918 will always be graded relative to one another in terms of speed so it's not surprising the Ring would remain their standard fare. These are frontrunner platforms for technologies that will filter down to their other cars and serve as benchmarks.

How well these cars perform in lap times compared to their peers and older models is interpreted as vindication of the effectiveness of the technologies. In a sense, their performances bestow some of the flagship's aura on future road models for their regular clientele. From a business standpoint, I think it's not really very meaningful for their "lesser cars" to prove themselves unless they are designed to achieve or exceed certain performance levels under controlled conditions.

I think that's what 288GTO/F40/F50/Enzo/LAF do for each respective generation of technological advances. Other brands also try to do the same thing but LCdM and Ferrari seem to have it down to an art.

 

. Whats the weight of the road P4/5C ?

 

thank you!!!

someone gave an answer to something, only people can answer, who drove there......
The laptime is only one measurement.
We test our cars there because of the best test possibilities available! And many copy us!! Why?
The laptime is one grade of many.

greetings from Munich (home of BMW )

P.S my personal time is 8:04,43 in a "normal" production car

 

A VERY respectable time. I have only knowingly been timed on one lap as I know that I would be trying to better the time and it would end up with me running out of talent very quickly. I have done an 8:42 in one of my E46 M3s. Only difference over a standard M3 was a set of four piston front brakes, slightly modified suspension and a sticker on the strut brace that said "I am not speeding, just qualifying"!!!

I think I have been quicker but absolutely no proof, that was in my E60 M5.

 

Lighter than La Ferrari but we'll also have a lot less HP. That said we'll have over 2X the downforce.

 

I agree totally. The Ring is serious. Very serious and very unforgiving.

 

I see you choose the right weapons !!!

and to lead back to the topic......
are you happy with these "weapons" on the street??

if yes:
we have been right!!

if no:
we have to improve

 

you know, what you are talking about!!!

much respect to you and your passion.....



P.S wish you the best to you and your new project: we need freeminds like you

 

Going back to the original question and that article. After getting tired of double-clutch 'boxes I took a manual Boxster S from my local dealership for a long test-drive and lived with this car for one weekend. I went for a full on 2h drive on my local B-roads at 5 in the morning, then went to London and kept on driving, shall we say enthusiastically

I don't know what Mr.Metcalfe was complaining about. Gearing felt very natural and I can't see how testing on the Nurburgring has ruined my experience.

However, point I want to make is how relevant track-times to on-the-road fun? I used to drive 991 Carrera S before I changed it for the FF. As you know, 991 C2S lapped NS in under 7:40 which is outstanding for such a usable car. However it is easy to see where it comes from. It has PDCC and PVT or in plain english active stabilisers and brake-steer. Car accelerates out of slow corners as if it is following a rail-track. Add PDK and it is all very efficient, very quick on a circuit. But I had more fun with a manual Boxster with an open diff and no clever "go-fast" systems. Because I had to manage a car more and I have really enjoyed it. Were there 997 GT3 RS with a proper LSD which lapped NS in identical 7:40 I would have enjoyed it even more, because those 7:40 were result of hardware perfection in that car not clever systems. I have a feeling that lap-times were very good measure of fun-factor before car manufacturers got an access to loads of fancy mechatronics. I mean, as an extreme example, try to drive MP4-12C back to back with F40. Which is quicker? Which is more engaging drive?

I by no means saying that lap-times have become irrelevant. Not at all, there is a correlation between how quick you can lap something and how much fun you will get, it is just not as strong as in the past, because today blistering lap-times can be result of a car driving itself a bit too much.

Roman

 

Thanks!

 

Interesting thoughts. Some new cars would not be drivable by most without these electronic aides or drives at speed would end badly.

Enjoyment wise I agree with you but on the Ring TC and ABS even in race cars makes it a lot safer. Our race TC and ABS is IMO a lot better/ less intrusive than street TC/ABS.

High downforce cars are also a lot different to drive at speed especially downforce that comes on early. Lateral grip has gone way up but it's very important to learn what happens when you exceed it. Understeering/overstearing is also something to learn well and exactly what your particular car does when it comes unstuck.

I too like smaller/lighter/simpler and that's the road we're going down in our next one off race/road.

 

This is a big factor as to why so many manufacturers test there. More akin to the "real world" than most tracks.