Replicas, why bother ??

First, NO, I don't like recreations. There are too many authentic, great cars to buy, own and drive to bother faking something I can't afford. I view fakes as sort of sad -- the Las Vegas version of the Eiffel Tower.

There are legal issues (theft of intellectual property), such as in the case of Mercedes recently taking legal action again someone who replicated a 300 SL Gullwing. But, as you point out, companies can't always go after us for taking their designs. My perspective is that the notion that we can get away with taking someone else's design without paying due to some sort of copyright lapse hardly feels like a moral victory for fakes.

And there are philsophical issues. Thus the thread title.

A car, as you say, is mechanical art. The value of art is in part due to its creator -- i.e., a Picasso that was painted by Picasso is materially different than a "Picasso" painted by the top of the class dude at the local art college. Most of this thread seems to be about how the art student might do a superior job, and how we should applaud him, and how his newer "Picasso" offers a visual experience that is a lot like the old Picasso, and about how he is having fun painting new "Picassos". Maybe the implication is that because he's having a lot of fun that his copies of Picasso are somehow adding value to the art world.

Clearly they aren't. They're useless. People tend to be polite about it, but we all pay good money to experience the authentic experience -- art, music, classic cars, dinner by a renowned chef. If you can't appreciate original art by the artist, you're missing the point.

It's either a Picasso -- or a Ferrari -- or it isn't. Yes, Picasso is dead, and Enzo is dead. As a true car enthusiast, I regard an original classic Ferrari as something special. Something made last week that looks like a classic Ferrari, honestly I couldn't care less about it. It's all about someone who couldn't afford the real thing trying to convince us that the substitute is better or justified.

It's never better, and there is no reason for replicas.

 

I see so when the ansell adams estate authorozes new prints these are fakes not to be looked at.

You see a car like a phograph is a series production ietem, by its nature inherrantly replicable, same with books which are literary art. Now yes a first edition is worth far far more than a recent print. Does tha mean we should not be allowed to read a book because there are only 36 copies. What if the authors estate licenses more copies, is your reading and knowledge fake? A car is art, but its indistrial art, like a hoover or a kitchen aid mixer, its not the product of one tormented artist and canvas.

Yes Mercedes crushed a gullwing and maybe they own the shape, but my understanding was that these were fiberglass cars, which had the trademarked 3 pointed star on them, and it was attaching the 3 pointed star that got them crushed. Of course AMG has been making old style gullwings and even reengining some old ones with new style motors and mod cons which is scariledge, but then they are a mercedes subsidiary so its OK right?



Point is as long as the design is not protected, or permisiion is given then just like photographs and even lithographs rerun they are real. These things are induistrial art, A car is made of certain metals to a a blueprint design, like a photograph print from a negative they are replicable and the same. Same for guns. You can own your old Thompson or M1 for a lot of money, or you can experience the same thing in a new one which is exactly the same for a lot less money. No one calls one buyer inauthentic or a fake, they are all gun ethusiasts who appreciate the thing. Everyone knows which are the new and old copies, and the market values then dollar wise accordingly.

To you and Mayor a car is something different to the rest of us, it seems to you its a status value thing. To me its all about what it is and how it goes. The price is just barrier to entry. Some shapes cant be improved upon, withness ford doing the Gt, so they get rerun. Newer acars are anodyne compared to older cars, so we replicate to enjoy a new build old car design, its really not abig deal, unless someone tries to pass it off as something else or the owner of the design if there is one is not compensated.

You go to see the mona lisa because you have seen pictures in books and read about it, the "real" authentic item is the pinacle. We listen to music recorded electronicaly, the band in concert might be the pinacle. Elvis is dead but I can still buy his records which are copies of a performance. A Cobra is no longer made but I can still buy licensed copies. Why is an Elvis record and a Cobra still authentic, because by their very nature, they are prefectly replicable and licensed, that makes them authentic but worth less than an old album or build.

Nick Mason who is the wooden motorboat authority in the world once put it something like this like this.
There are tiers to wooden boat owners.
people who own a new build new design wooden boat. (lets say a fiberglass replica car)
are people who own a wodden boat newly built to a classic design (recreations mostly accutarate)
people who own an old restored wodden boat
people who own a very special design wooden boat(say a gar wood v12 liberty powered race boat) the pinnacle, could be old buld or new either way a very special machine for a very special collector who understands. (favre GTO or real GTO)
Wahtever category they are all good, and those that can afford and appeciate graduate up the chain.

 

Agreed... almost.
They are not useless to the student, who is learning and enjoying what he is doing.
They are not useless to another person who might enjoy the art also, whether a fan of Picasso or not.
They ARE useless to a Picasso fan who takes it as an insult.

The first comparison is the only reason to own ANY car - for what it is to you.
The second comparison is neutral; I don't think you should own a car because of what other people think, but if someone else happens to enjoy it, there's no harm in that.
The third comparison applies to folks such as yourself, who are offended at any replica. I am sorry that's the way you feel, and I dislike the idea of upsetting someone, but it's not going to detract me from doing what I want to do.

In fact, the thought of deciding NOT to build a Cobra replica with my father because of what someone such as yourself might think is laughable to me. Other people's impressions do matter, but one can certainly go through life too concerned with the approval of others.
All that I have learned building a GT40 lost, so you are not irritated? Bah! I'll live with the shame.

 

Ruf makes Rufs based on Porsches, just like AMG once tuned Mercedes. I don't think Alois Ruf is creating new 911s from the ground up and passing them off as Porsches.

See the difference?

If you think making something Ferrari-shaped in your garage means you "own a Ferrari for less money", you're missing the point.

As long as a design isn't protected, yes, someone can copy it. That doesn't mean the result is a Ferrari, or a Porsche, or whatever, right? It means that person won't be prosecuted. Not sure how you get from that to a replica being a worthwhile thing (?)

I can't speak for The Mayor, but to me a $500,000 Lynx knockoff of a Jaguar has no value, while a $40,000 Porsche 914-6 is a true enthusiast car, and I have respect for the guy who owns and drives it. Price notwithstanding, replicas are the definition of poseur cars.

Real is real. Fake is fake, legal or otherwise makes no difference.

 

So if you maken a 250 GTO and dont call it a ferrari then its OK. And hey I am Ok with that. If its OK for AMG which is a subsidiary of merceedes to do new old build gul;wings then I guess its oK for SPF which is licensed to do a GT40 or Chevron to do a B16 which they still do. the lkist goes on.

I think any car which is cool in shape and concept, driven in anger is not a poseur car. I think a new ferrari that never sees its limits is a poseur car. I think pretty much any new proche is a poseurs car. In any event the majority seems to agree with me, not that a majority is ncessarilky right. But also the FIA which is a sanctioning body, well lets say the premier santioning body agrees with recreations and sansctions them,. Were there not some new build
car craft GT40 MK1v running at the lemans retrospective?

In any event make mine a nut and bolt copy of a 288, you can leave the ferrari badges off and call it a Piero I dont care, what iIwant is the thing not the name.

 

Make mine a Ferrari.

 

+`1

Some people just plain don't get it, Bullfighter.

I, personally, am way past sick and tired of the people who are calling those of us who decry fakes as "snobs."

A snob is the guy who just has to have a fake 250 GTO, a GT40, A/C Cobra, or whatever. Must have that look. . . even if you can't afford it, or the car is no longer made. Oh, but we don't misrepresent our cars as originals, they say. We aren't hurting anyone, they say. The driving experience is the same, they say.

A fake is a fake, no matter how much anyone tries to justify it. . . and, by now, we've heard all the justifications. And I'm not buying a single one of them.

There are plenty of production cars that are excellent quality, capable of astonishing speed, handle well, and are more reliable. The only reason to buy a fake is for the "look."

The snob is the guy who just has to have that look, not the true aficionado who appreciates a genuine Ferrari, Shelby, M-B, or other classic for its true value, rather than its surface appearance.

There's simply no way to justify owning a fake car. None.

 

My first car was a 246 Dino gt L series. Had it for 15 years. Restored it from non-running condition.

And, you know I'm looking for a 512 Boxer project. I've said that many times. Why? I just like the car.

I've restored many a classic car in my shop when I had it in the 80's/90's. Some raced at the Monterey historics.

Now, I don't see what that has to do with much of anything.

What does have to do with much of anything is that fakes, phonies, and knock offs are a part of life that should be stamped out. Today's world is full of photoshopped images, CGI animations, and faked reality shows.

What a pity we've added classic cars into that category.

 

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery!

 

Name me one modern car that has anywhere near the driving experience of a GT40, or one modern car anywhere near as much fun and viceral to drive as a Cobra, they dont exist. Its not must have look its want the driving experience and like the look.

Of course if you are someone who judges cars meerly by their presence then yes the look of a replica is either attractive or repulsive. Mw I like thingsa for the way they go, and whether it was made in maranello or Uk what is omportant is how it was made and how it goes.

BTW what is the anti crowds opnion of the auto union GP car recreations made in the UK.

I will give you a hint, they were comissioned by Audi.

A snob is someoen who denies others acess or accptance and sees themself as above. A relica might be in bad taste, but its not exclusionary so hardly snobbery. What is exclusiobary is owners or not even owners of old builds excluding cars because somehow they think theirs are better.

 

I guess this guy in the link below is widely known for his poor automotive taste, particularily because he doesent buy ferraris, Apparently he thinks their saleman are a holes and most owners a hats.

Jay Leno's Garage - 1927 Bugatti Type 35 Pur Sang Replica | Bugatti

 

A snob is someone who judges someone else because they can't afford a Ferrari or some other high dollar exotic. Someone who won't go look at the completely restored Yugo GL because its just a Yugo. I've seen one and the guy loved his car, not how I would spend my money but I'll bet it's more rare than most Ferraris. A snob is the woman who buys a $4k purse so her friends can see she bought an expensive purse and then criticizes the woman who doesn't have one.

Someone who has a replica and tries to pass it off as the real thing is just an asshat. But then an asshat could be the guy who buys a Ferrari just because its expensive and tries to pick up girls with it because he has money.

A criminal is someone who tries sell his replica as the real thing.

I get your points about replicas and don't necessarily disagree but don't necessarily agree either. I would rather buy a nice Citizen than a fake Rolex. I'd rather buy a Corvette than a Cobra replica. I have always wanted to build a car from the ground up. It would probably be a Hot Rod but like a 32 Ford but because it would be a fiberglass body some of you would think it should be crushed and discarded.

But your definition of snob is way off.

 

How do you feel about custom V twin Motorcycles? They are almost all based on Harley Davidson design. Most of the frames are almost identical to Harley dimensions and darn near all of them are a 45 degree V twin motor. All perfectly legal but deep down you know they are all Harley wanna bees. I would argue that those do actually hurt Harley sales far more than a replica 250 GTO imapcts the sales of genuine GTOs. How many of you have a fake Harley in your garage next to your real Ferrari?

 

Fchat logic:

Fake Rolex? Horrific! I would never wear one! Imagine the embarrassment!

Fake handbag made in Pakistan? Terrible. Criminal. I wouldn't be caught dead giving one as a gift.

Fake reproduced DVD from China: criminal! Those people need to protect our intellectual properties!

Fake jet engine parts: Scary! We need to track this down and stop it!

Fake designer shoes: ghastly! They look phony and don't last.




Fake Cobra replica: cool! Lets drive!!!!

 

I disagree with the analogies because a replica is not held out as an original, but instead a tribute, perhaps with some personal touches that make it safer or more usable. A well done replica has engineering, craftsmanship and artistry that I appreciate. That said, of the 40 or so Hemi Cudas made, probably fewer than 100 remain. That is wrong.

 

uh uh uh uh uh..........a direct knock-off/replica of the original comment: ..." of the original 39 GTO's made, fewer than 100 remain today".....

Be careful; the fakey-doo police are everywherrrrrr.....

 

I agree completely.

Classic cars are the best. But replicas are worthless.

 

I think we need a running excuse list for replicas:

1. Old cars are more fun but they're old and need maintenance. Fakes are newer.
2. Classics are too expensive. I can't afford anything fun to drive.
3. I had fun building it, so Ferrari should be OK with it.
4. I'm pretty sure it's not illegal.
5. I don't specifically tell people it's a Ferrari, so they probably assume it isn't.
6. It's exactly the same as a real one.
7. It's a tribute - I'm actually helping Ferrari by building a car that looks like it.
8. Only snobs buy real classic cars.
9. I thought I had bookmarked ReplicaChat -- didn't realize I was actually on FerrariChat. Man, these guys are Ferrari snobs around here - what's up with that?
10. My homemade Ferrari is better than the crap made by Ferrari back in the '60s.
11. The original owner of the design let the design trademark lapse, so they want me to copy it and aren't interested in compensation.
12. I know a guy who has a replica Ferrari and he's rich.
13. Many old cars were restored, so they're kind of like replicas.
14. Lots of guys in my area have 250 GTOs. I needed one too and didn't have the cash.
15...

(Seriously, the list seems as endless as this thread. If your excuse is on this list, no reason to re-post.)

 

At least some of those are somewhat tangible. The anti-replica arguments are almost entirely subjective and pure opinion. A lot of them value an original 250 GTO simply because it's original and nothing else. Some place 100x the value on one simply because it has a number stamped somewhere on it. That's borderline retarded.

At least some of the people who are pro-replica have tangible reasons, and still value the originals.

There is no scientific or logical reason for originals to be valued more than replicas. End of story. To call replicas worthless and originals desirable is to say red is a better color than blue.

 

OMG classic. Well done. You made my day.

 

Your list is childish in its lopsideed approach. Its like an infantile political conversation where you adhere to party line, unable to even comprehend the other point of view. You ingnore parts you dont like and then denigrate the others. Personaly i like to talk with adults who have adult perspective,.

My grandfather always said you cant argue with a fool, you sure prove him so right.

 

Oh lookey here I guess those original cars I cant afford, well mmaybe they are sort of original and sort of made in maranello.

Roelofs Parts

 

two cars I would drive as replicas

Cobra - lots are made. Way out number the real thing. Everyone knows they're replicas.

250GTO - Beauuutiful cars. Can't afford a real one.. ever. Will drive one - without the prancing horse badge. There was a thread here with a beautiful replica.

Anything else, buy the real thing or don't drive it at all.

 

It's pointless to argue with them.

They cannot make arguments that are anything other than "just because."

Why is a replica worthless?
Because.
Because why?
Just because.

 

There were 760 Hemicudas made. What the heck is wrong if there are more 'Cudas with Hemi engines now? The Vin Tag and Broadcast Sheet and Serial Numbers tell if it originally came with one. You think people shouldn't be allowed to swap engines and emblems?