Replicas, why bother ??

Well actually if someone is making all these fake watches, more fakes than originals then I would say more folks are being put to work (not to say for the same pay) and I really do not see that Rolex's have gone down in value due to all the fakes so.........there goes that line of argument.

 

You could rob one branch of Wells Fargo and the bank would be OK.

Go for it.

 

The fake is more poser than the real one.

The real one (the Ferrari) is a more authentic Ferrari.

 

So wait, he's seen so many that he doesn't know what it is? How's that go?

You have an interesting way of twisting things.

The reality is that most people don't know much of anything about cars. Even fewer know anything about racing. And fewer still know anything about racing in the 60's and 70's. And of those that do, not all of them feel like you do. I had two people last weekend refer to the GT40 as a "Blue Ferrari". People do not know, and they care even less about not knowing. Most people have more important things going on.

The other reality is that our heinous kit-car-clunker attracts more attention than my very real Ferrari, and all of it positive. I have people follow me into stores, circle back to gas stations, come into my office, you name it. Kids, ladies, men of all ages, it never fails. People absolutely love it, and that's a fact. They don't know what it is, but they know they like it. I emptied the local gas station convenience store once to the point the guy in line had to come out because the lady at the counter left him standing with his credit card in hand.

The Ferrari: teenage boys want to race me. Others tell me "it must be nice to have all that money."

For certain, some of that difference is where we live. You are in Vegas. That might as well be an alien planet compared to small town central Virginia. But I'd wager the average Joe there is no more knowledgeable than around here, especially about vintage stuff. I am certain there are many numerically more wealthy collector types there, and for sure more Ferraris per square mile there than here.

I am not going to sway you, and I get that, and I think I understand where you are coming from, particularly based on your line of work. I have made an attempt to see things from your perspective, it would be nice if you at least made an attempt to understand my view and recognize that this is not a black and white issue of good vs. evil. But I doubt that is going to happen.

My comments are really directed at others that perhaps are kicking around the idea of trying to tackle a project like this. For certain there are going to be those who don't see the point, but for the rest of us, the experience is priceless.

And my little sh#+-can is no slouch either. She's done about 4000 miles at VIR, handles like a dream, and has enough power to make Mark Donahue happy. Regardless of how much steam is coming out of you ears, I will be grinning wide behind the wheel very soon.

 

BTW, if you read Jim's thread on the P4/5 you will see that his original intent was to build a car with modern underpinnings that looked like his P3/4 but could be enjoyed everyday.

How is that different from me doing the same thing with a GT40?

And he "destroyed" an Enzo to do it.

 

The sad thing is that a good 'fake' probably has more authentic Ferrari parts on it than the over restored car. All some people care about are vin tags and odometer readings, which is sad.

 

What a poser. I guess because he named it P4/5 instead it's ok? Maybe you shoud just call your GT40 a GT42 and it'll be ok with these guys.

 

If Jim had built an Enzo replica, it would have been insignificant.

That's kind of the point of this whole thread.

He commissioned an original design, which adds to the exotic automotive world. He went through proper channels. It takes deep pockets, so he's probably going to be called a snob here, but he didn't freeload off someone else's design. It's original -- not another knockoff.

IMHO, the P4/5 project is exactly the kind of thing that we should celebrate.

 

I would rock the Superperformance GT40. It's so accurate that the GT40 registry will let you enter.

This is probably the only replica I'd own, because it looks like tons of FUN! I would drive it a lot on the track, the feeling of driving inside a cramped 60's designed cockpit with 550 hp V8 in a shell that weighs under 2500 lbs must be a fantastic experience! No electronics, modern reliability and a beast of design.

One could argue a 360 Modena would be a better buy for the same money, but in terms of fun (that's why I like sportscars) I don't think anything this side of a 430 Scuderia can beat it.

Love it.
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You betray yourself my friend. The rest of us dont drive ferraris to say hey look at me at all. We drive them for the sheep leausure of the drive. Therefore if its a 308GT4 or aGTO or anything in between its cool. Although in my book if its red with tan and has sheilds its slightly suspect.

As to your straw dogs and caveaman comment. Yes you are right, i am a cave man in my driving habbits and automotive taste, so I prefer a club and spear. I like to see the blood of what i kill before I eat, or s,ell the fuel clucth and rubber. I find an animal reduced to a prepackaged supermaket product abhorrent, just like an antisceoptic computer car, no matter how efficiently fast it is.

So I like to have to DRIVE and operate my machines, that is part of the joy and experience for me. The anticeptic computer car does not get me hard in any way.

So yes I want a caveman car, and since thye are no longer series produced I have no bones about constructing one. I dont have the genius of flair for design, so i take an off the rack design. Just like people in the suburbs build tudor modern or whatever style house they prefer.

You still have not answered my questions re the auto union and aston others all factory sanctioned but not built in the place or time where the manufacturer resides, like all pr people you avoid any substance that does not fit in with your product view. If i did not know better I would say its lib kool aid thinking.

The theme with you is constantly what image the car projects, a wealth statement, what other people may think, I understand that for you like most new f car buyers this is what its about.

Personaly what it projects, I could not give a crap. Although the latest videos on petrolicious seem to indicate a grey boxer projects extreme good taste, but I digress.

I will make my recreation of a 288 and call it somehting else, so what, it also wont be red.

meantime I just bought a 512m motor, and I am going to take my totaly original boxer and put this motor in, because its the ultimate development of the flat 12 and how i want my boxer to go. its the type of car ferrari would have made if they had not aborted the whole process to go after fat old Americans who needed big seats and good ac to survive/testarossa.
And I will keep all he original bits so when my kids one day see boxers as hugely valuable they can restore it back to museum status. Meanwhile I am going to have fun with my cars, and the fun comes from the driving.


I was walkign down 5th avenue in Manhatten today, looking at the ridiculous big polo labels people wear now. The difference is I will wear a polo or lacoste style shirt. I could give two tosses whther it has a horse or alligator, preferably not. This projects nothing except slavish adeherance to marketing, and maybe the brand also has quality. I will choose something well made that suits me, it may or may not have a lable, but one thing for sure if the label is too big, like sheilds on a fender its not for me. I wear great suits on occasion, no one can see the label, I buy them because they fit and feel great, if they had an outward label I would not wear them, that is posing, not personal taste.

As to whther most prople think one car or another is something. Most think my grey boxer is an 80's camaro at first galnce. When people ask what type of cars i have I mention the ferrari last, because frankly these days the association with ferrai fan owners is embarrasing. So yeah i want the machine, some of which happen to be ferraris and preferably called soemthign better. Just like a jag recreation is called an lynx

 

Notice the name of the side of this SPF replica Alan Mann racing. He is a spf dealer in the UK. In Mayors book a poseur desecrator. Which is funny because he raced "real" GT40's int he 60's and ran a team. I guess a SPF is not a pose to him but the real thing.

 

An original design? Put p4/5 next to p3/4 and then a Fiero based Testarossa body kit next to a real Testarossa and see which one is more 'original'. I guess their only sin is to put a Testarossa badge on it as p4/5 looks more like a p3/4 than most of the Fiero kits look like the car they're 'cloning.' So if a clone is less accurate, it's worth celebrating I guess. I would have thought the opposite, but so be it.

I don't much care as I don't anticipate buying a clone, but I do appreciate them for what they are.

 

Read it, or watch the videos of Jim himself. He asked them to build him a car that looked like the P3/4, but on an Enzo chassis. Castriota at Pininfarina convinced him to go with a more modern look.

Spin it how you want, the idea is the same, it's just on a 100x different financial order of magnitude.

 

Yes, a modern interpretation of the P3/4, and one that he paid to have designed by Pininfarina.

Not a P3/4 replica.

 

Does Ferrari appreciate Fiero-based Testarossas?

You don't own the body design. Ferrari does.

 

The copy cat excusers always have an excuse. That's pretty clear from this thread.

Why would someone take a 240z and put a GTO body on it? To make it go faster? To make handle better? As some kind of "tribute"? Because it was a fun project? As some kind of statement against modern cars?

No. To make people look at them like they where the mayor of Poserville.

 

I find it absurd that you think you speak for everyone and that your opinion is above reproach.

 

Omg you are right. There is another reason to put a GTO body kit on a 240z:

To look like a total dork.

Sorry I should not have spoken for everyone before. Now we can all agree.

 

FINALLY we are getting somewhere!

 

Ah I see. So if it had looked exactly like a P3/4, what then?

And last I checked Pininfarina is not Ferrari.

And people go nuts at a lost vintage V12, but it's just fine to cut up an Enzo?

It's a good thing it's all so black and white to some. Because I don't see the differences quite so easily.

you can build:
A completely original car (I think everyone is good with that).
A replica of a car no longer produced by a company that no longer exists
A replica of a car no longer produced by a company that does still exist
A replica of a car that is in production today
A replica of a car that is no longer produced using completely unique parts
A replica of a car that is no longer produced using parts from a related manufacturer
A replica of a car no longer produced by a company still in production using parts of another car from that company
A unique car by modifying an existing car to some extent (cutting off the roof, changing the engine, changing the transmission, changing the suspension, etc).
And a lot of mixed permutations as well (make a race car from a road car, make a road car from a race car... make a completely original car from parts of a different car...)

I guess we should elect an F-chat panel issue rulings.

For instance, how much "not like the original" does it need to be to be a new car? Because the P4/5 even in its final form looks more like the P3/4 than a number of the horrible lambo and enzo recreations. So I guess they are actually "interpretations" or "inspired by" and thus OK?

Mr. Glickenhaus is my favorite collector (though I don't many. OK I don't actually know any). His collection is fantastic, he drives his cars, he built his own endurance race car and team. I'd want to be actually driving that car, but I guess he's smarter than me and wants the car to be successful... And I like that he built a P3/4-like car on a modern chassis to enjoy with no expense spared.

But I don't have his money and I never will. So I have my own little piss-ant collection, based on cars that make me happy, and I will drive and enjoy them as much as I can.

 

The mayor is coming off a bit badly here...

Comparing a cobra replica to a prius. Its someone's pride and joy and you think its fine to insult him / it? You could consider all post enzo ceo / fiat group era ferraris not the real deal, but you don't find the gto owners telling owners of newer cars to "get a proper Ferrari". 599 gto, is it worthy of the badge?

I remember gickenhaus recounting how when ferrari ceo found out about P4/5 design done by pinin, Ferrari went mental... is that for loyalty and esprit de corps? There is a herd of Jim groupies on here. Most likely a great guy and obviously impressive but I find the constant fawning pathetic.

Reality: J G he has something many people don't have. Megabucks. The original question "replicas: why bother?" Well people still have the passion but not the means. I applaud their efforts to live a dream.

A biker pulled up next to me and I could see him peeking in. Got chatting and he said he was doing a replica and wanted to see if mine was real. Nice guy. Not that smart but nice. I felt a bit sorry for him that he couldn't have the real deal, but he was happy enough. I would be disgusted with myself if I'd told him not to bother as its an insult to my car. 10 seconds later we were "proceeding" through a tunnel. He does a wheelie, then jumps both feet at the same time onto his seat... The petrol is thick in this guys veins and I hope his 360 proj came good. So Unlike the california owners who so far (3 years) have never acknowledged a flash or wave. If we are looking for pretentious owners I think a plot of waves vs vehicle age would be elucidating. Or perhaps my car is just too **** to get included?


I'm not sure if JG would acknowledge any paternal heritage of his car or not, it could be argued either way really. And that's the point, its an opinion. Yes it has a vin and parts. No it was a fresh (arguable) design. It pays homage? Its a departure trading on the brand image? I think the intent was to build a dream and I see zero difference in that and the intent of diy / one off productions with a smaller budget. Intent is separate to execution...


I think the legal battle is a different argument entirely, but morally and I'm going to go with the definition of morality being "the most for the most", then replicas provide a moral boost for society. This site (Ferrari centri) LOVES the none Ferrari P4/5 even though (for me) its a grey area heritage car.

Even if we take another moral definition "the most for the most able" (ability tempered) then the people that are able to make a repro are still morally righteous to do so.

There are only so many notes on a keyboard. So many designs around 4 wheels. Just like drug patents. I don't think car patents should last for ever. companies like intel trying to trade mark the letter P offensivus maximus.


Some of the recreations come from one VIN or bush and bam out pops a classic era certified original for investment oriented owners. Or people are yeilding to the innate fear of death (and embracing the concept of continuation). I don't have a problem with it at all, but you have to admit, it does further muddy the waters of the "original" definition.

Lastly - I quite fancy building a P4. Let's be realistic affording an original is statistically unlikely. And while there labouring away I'd like to think that my interpretation of the Ghost of Enzo would watch on and smile at my efforts both for the joy it would give me, and others around.

 

Yeah but what if you exatly make a GTO body down to the hammer marks and use the same foundry as ferrari classiche does for the other bits/

As to the 240Z it fools no one, at at best you can say the design is inspired by. So it just looks nice. Now yes if you put ferrari badges on it and sheilds you are posing., But truthfully most ferrari owners these days are posing too.

 

Check this link. This "poseur" seems to love the SPF GT40. Too bad he is taken in by it as he is an ex grand prix driver and highly regarded in car circles. If you look to his conclusion at the end you will see why a modern cannot replace it for performance/experience.




[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRR6lTUzztY]Ford GT40 (Fifth Gear) - YouTube[/ame]

 

Look -- if you can't afford the real thing but you really want the real thing, just get a knock off or replica.

That's true of a women's hand bag, designer sunglasses... and exotic cars.

I wish you guys would just admit it and this thread can end.

There's no other reason to want one other that you want one and can't afford it or aren't willing to pay it's value. Otherwise, why would anyone pay 10 times more for the real one just to get --- a real one?

Let's just be honest because all this BS that you can make something better and that's the reason to do is just hogwash.

The reason to do it is to ride around in the darn thing and look cool in your cool car while paying 10% for it.



BTW: Not one of you has given us a good reason aside from "it would be fun to do" on why stealing someone else's design without permission is a good thing.

I rest my case.

 

Amen.

Although I thought the Marilyn Monroe look-alike story was interesting.