Schumacher 97-98 was far more impressive than Hakkinen despite his WDC. Same goes for Alonso circa 2009 to present vs Vettel. The greats can just do 'more' with these cars when it just shouldn't be possible. We all expect Vettel to win is the difference because the car is so damned good. I'm not saying Vettel possibly cannot do what Schu and others have done, but we don't know. It's the same as why I believe Schumacher is the greatest F1 driver of all time, because we don't know what Senna could have done at age 40+. Perhaps Senna was the greatest of all time, but we will never ever know, and all we really know is Schu pulled himself into an F1 car at age 40+ and still went like heck around Monaco and equaled/beat Nico Rosberg in 2012 and most of 2011 which even Lewis Hamilton is having difficulty doing as Nico has beaten him properly so far in qualifying, and had Nico's car actually finished the same number of races I have no doubt he would either be ahead or equal in points.
Great points all. Nobody doubts that Vettel is a talented driver, but being in the best car on the grid for four years leaves you wondering how good he is. Let's hope that the next turbo era enables some teams to leapfrog the Red Bull and allow us to get a true measure of Seb's talent.
+1 However, playing devils advocate..... Marks a pretty good jockey IMO. Take Seb out of the seat and "pretend" he's the #1. Does it then remain the best car on the grid? Or just another "front runner"? Love him or hate him, his ability to disappear into the distance at the start is damn impressive, at least to me; As I said elsewhere, only Tazio, (thx Viz ) Fangio, Jimmy, Ayrton & Michael have consistently demonstrated that ability. Boring? Not to me. Rather, a demonstration of mastery of the car on full tanks. Beautiful to watch IMO. Cheers, Ian
Agree'd and after what he did in Sepang Im less of a fan but he deserves the same respect as other multi WDC winners. Period. He's in a good car and he wins. Thats what he should be doing.
+1 I'm no fan either, particularly after Sepang. That stunt will live with him for a long time and has cost him a lot of respect in the paddock. Cheers, Ian
There are few competitors at the top level of any sport I admire as people. You don't succeed at that level with a well balanced personality. Seb, at least, makes no bones about it.
True enough. Case in point is Steve Jobs. Not one liked that guy back in the day, heck, people still say he was a difficult man to work for up through to the end. Enzo Ferrari too, even Luca states Enzo was a 'difficult' man, and that's probably putting it lightly.
I've never heard anyone say Damon hill was a great driver, it seems easy to accept his title was a result of a dominant car, and that otherwise he was a journeyman, and people are absolutely right, Brits love him but really he lucked into a great car, and managed to lose a championship or two despite it..... Seb is lucky enough to have walked in the red bull at the right time, and have the team totally kiss his backside throughout, and his luck has continued. How many times has he hit a wall without damage, spun around and kept going, hit people and kept on the track? The car is dominant, and his luck brings him the rest. No one is saying he is rubbish, but good as he looks now, the acid test will always be how he wrestles a 2nd or 3rd tier car to touching distance of a championship, maybe with a partner driver who is loved more by the team than him (such as Ron Dennis love affair with Lewis over fernando at McLaren). I do admire his ability to make the most of all around him, and his aggressive and arrogant nature is what a champion needs to consistently win, but how hard is the actual driving when the car is a margin better than everything else.
Again, fully agreed. And per Fernando Alonso staements very recently and late last year, he confirmed luck does indeed exist in F1.
When he is in a 2nd or 3rd tier car it wont matter. He has 3 titles. Thats the legacy and maybe another this year. He's in top company and it doesnt matter what might be but what is done and in the books. Right now he is in the lead and driving like he will win a 4th. That matters. The rest of this debate is great at the bar but he is in a winning car and is winning...what more do you want from an F1 driver when given a good car. Schumi didnt work much i guess. He had it easy. There is nothing easy about pulling G's, sweating and bumping and working at the limit. Nothing.
You're sorta missing the point. No one is saying Vettel sucks or is undeserving. They are saying that he hasn't proven he can rise above poor equipment to win a title or take the fight down to the wire. He hasn't done that, he's had the best car ever since he stepped into Red Bull. That isn't his fault, but it is what it is.
Mark doesn't appear to have "the best car" though. As I said before, take Seb away and it would then be a front-runner, but hardly dominant as it is with Seb at the controls..... We can debate all day long about how Mark gets the shaft, but the bottom line is, basically, Seb can win with it. Mark can't. Seb has made it/ensured it remains one of the top cars. I'll never forgive his Sepang nonsense, and am no fan, but the guy is *damn* good. Cheers, Ian
Bingo! Im not missing any point. Same as FA vs Massa. Vettel has the gift and gets it done. Same with me on Sepang as Ive stated more than once as well.
Webber was never a top driver to begin with and if he was #1 at Red Bull he would have a couple titles. To try and posture like Vettel hasn't had the best car since he stepped into Red Bull is ridiculous. Mark has won plenty of times with it and almost grabbed a title. As I said earlier, no one is saying he isn't. You are actually missing the point. Vettel has never had a difficult car and managed to mount a title challenge like MS/FA have done. That's not saying he couldn't, but he hasn't yet. That's all Ferraripilot is saying. As for Massa...get real...Webber wins races, Massa isn't even close. Shows the difference between the machinery right there. Alonso is *that* good.
Kinda like if Phil was #1 at Ferrari?..... Kinda like if Phil was #1 at Ferrari?..... Seems you forget just how close he came a few years back - He was, for a few seconds anyway, the WDC..... You're prepared to "forgive" Mark his position, but your hatred for Phil deems the same impossible for him. Sure, the Cans have been the class of the field for the past few years. *But* they've had the jockey to maximize the all important package. He can, Mark can't was my point. Cheers, Ian
Some folks have intense need to explain away Seb's and RB's successes. He's a great driver and its a very fast car. No surprise they win often.
+1 You have to be blind not to see the talent. I have no patience for this stupid discussion. Show me a multiple WDC who isn't superb and I show you a F1 fan without a clue.
Come on your missing the point just like they say I am Couldnt agree more. Multiple WDC winner. Winner - what more do you want lol. I guess he needs to do it with one eye covered to be worthy....some people here actually have NO point.
As I have already said, no one is doubting that vettel is one of the fastest drivers, and will have titles to make him one of the 'best in list'. What we are discussing, however, is whether he is a great. At the moment, he has the dominant car, immense luck, and a team which supplies an environment where he is the main focus (best development parts, big cuddles, etc etc), where his teammate actually reports feeling second best. At Ferrari, you could argue fernando has this, but massa is not ostrasised, he is loved and looked after! Compared to senna, schumi etc, those we revere, once the dust settles on his career, to be held as a great like they are, we are simply saying that so far, he has not had the opportunity to demonstrate that he could cope with going to a 2nd or 3rd best car/team and turning them around and making them winners over and above that achieved by others. When Lewis Hamilton moved to Mercedes, most of those here arguing that seb is the greatest driver since billy the kid picked up a gun were advising us that Lewis, rather than going to a team for the money, was proving just how awesome he was by going to a struggling team to help develop them and win a championship while McLaren was already at the top, and therefore wasn't showing he could mix it with the greats! This would establish Lewis not just as one of the fastest drivers of the current crop, but that he would show he could develop a car and build a team around him to repeat what schumi had done in the 90's with a frankly second rate team Ferrari had become. The jury is still out of course on that as its early days, to my mind, though I never appreciated Lewis until the last McLaren year, even I have to concede he is a changed driver, and a better man, for his move, and his honesty about what work needs to be done is certainly looking hopeful. DF1, I am not disagreeing with you mate, but when you say schumi etc didn't sweat racing the Ferrari at the front all those years, I agree, the car was great, but he earned those titles having helped develop a car into a supreme racing machine, and his team from a political nightmare into the most efficient and close knit team I've ever seen, and suffered four years of building and setbacks, and missed championships, till they got it right. Seb no doubt will do this one day, either at the bulls or at another team, and what winner wants to give up his winning equipment too early - the challenge for seb is whether he has the temperament to do what schumi did, and the will to bother
Some people here should follow golf. There are a few here who saw the insane talent of Vettel right from the start. Not me but I was convinced he was the real deal after he won Monza in a "Minardi". But here we are 3.5 WDCs later and some folks still debate whether he has it or not and wonder what he would do in an inferior car. Well, hello! Haven't you been paying any attention? MS "only" qualified an inferior car and that was for me all I needed to know that the next Senna was on his way and I was right.
