New ADDCO sway bars. Oh, Yeah!

How do they fit bringing the bar from the top down onto the spring, rather than from the bottom, up?

My bar flanges seem to positioned about 3" higher than as shown in your pic and still clear the tie rod ends.

Can't tell from the angle of the pic, would say 1/4" wider per side help clear the springs? They will obviously fit with the QA-1 springs and shocks.

Not sure if the legs were shortened up any from my second set.


I would be careful about going too much wider, any further adjsutments maybe should be made by shortening up the legs

Thanks,
Doug

 

My rear bar heim joint mounts on the lower control arms measure 42.25" (=/- about 1/8") center to center. Does your car have a different measurement? if diff year cars have diff dims, we need to know this.


I am really puzzled why you say the rear bar doesn't fit, when mine fits almost perfectly.

Here are couple pics of my front bar. I have the heims compressed as far as possible. Notice the 3/4" spacers. My bar is a 40" bar. It fits with the QA-1 shocks and springs, it wouldn't fit with factory springs

If I had a 42" bar, I would extend the heims to full extension to raise the bar above the spring, even accounting for the wider factory spring, it *should* fit. It may not, without widening a bit more, or shortening the legs a bit.

Doug.
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Hi Doug,

Looks like the bar is a bit too long. Did you see my post #27 http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/308-328/407286-new-addco-sway-bars-oh-yeah-2.html

There is a bit of room to slide the bar mounts forward, so the angularity isn't so extreme and the safety washers might give you a bit more room to avoid binding.

If you can wiggle the drop link at full extension and at ride height, you are probably ok. Checking for needed rotational play at full compression is a bit tough to do unless you remove the shock or jack the opposite corner.

With the outboard mounting, does this limit front wheel turning??

HTH,
chris

 

Well, what I am trying to figure out why my bar (rear) fit almost perfectly, and Newman says his rear bar is WAY too wide. I mentioned that the rear bar i have COULD be narrowed 5/8" total for perfect vertical heims and no spacer washers. You can see a pic of how my rear bar mounts, a few posts above, it looks pretty good to me..

Back to the front bar. My second front bar was 40" wide, it worked with QA1's but was still too narrow. By widening to 42" (which was an estimate), based on some mesurements I made, It should work with the factory springs, but not dropped all the way down onto the control arms as in Newmans pic. Elevating the bar above the spring, with the heim joint as full practical extension (should) allow the bar to fit, but it simply may not, unless the bar is widned slightly more.

Keep in mind, we had the bar bent down to clear the tie rod ends so wheeels could be fully turned to lock. Also keep in mind you can't just widened the bar excessively, or you would be relegated to factory width rims. Perople who put heavy sway bars on, in many cases are also using wider rims and tires.

Widening the bar to 42.5", still allowed use of wider than stock rims, you could probably go to 43" or 43.5", but that is probaly it before the rims start hitting the bar. There was no issue with the front heims hitting anything.


The other thing that need to be factored in, it there is only so much you can bend a 1" diamter bar, in a certain distance, which is what Addco must figure out when making these things. If the front bar was weldment, rather than one piece of bent metal, you could do far more in terms of making the bar do exactly what you want.


The bars I have on my car now, and the replacement 42" front bars as shipped to Newman, will work with any car that has QA1 shocks, and either stock wheels and tires, or wider wheels and tires.

Doug

 

If I raise the bar up so it clears the springs with fully extended links, the outer tie rod nut and spindle arm will hit the link limiting the steering range. Not to mention hack the crap out of the link if the suspension is travelling while turning. Another possible outcome is the steering arm gets hung up and locked on the link causing some excitement for Rob, an upside down smile and a phone call to me.

If I can make this bar work and relay the info to Addco then they can make the necessary changes so there are no excuses and with any luck they will replace these current bars with revised bars free of charge.

 

Thanks. The tie rod interference was also a possibility with elevating the bar.

Do you think widening the bar perhaps an inch total will let it clear the factory springs? What does that do to heim angle from vertical? Can the bar go outside of the heims if it is widened to perhaps 43.5"?


What about your rear bar, outside width, and your control arm center to center mounting points? And year of car?

Doug

 

If I may be permitted to ask a crazy question...

I thought the purpose of upgrading to these bars was simply that they're wider in diameter/thicker than stock, so why can't someone here who's got a shop, parts bin, or can easily dismantle their suspension SEND IN A STOCK FACTORY BAR as a reference? Would this not permit ADDCO to get the perfect angles and fit widths, or am I missing something?

 

BETTER STILL, since the constituency of this board arguably represents the world's top experts and connoisseurs of this particular car, does anyone here have an actual set of the original Saner bars installed that they could measure or send in as the model? Or know someone who does?

 

And btw, they still never charged my card.

 

You are missing something. The stock bars are not adjustable. ADDCO HAD a set of stock bars to work from, as a start, simply making thicker, non adjustable bars wouldn't be hard, the hard part is the adjust-ability, AND being able to clear everything else involved with the front suspension.

My understanding is the original Saner bars had fitment issues, with tie rod interference in front.

Doug

 

The front bar is a challenge. If they had not put the last kink in the bar to make the lever perpendicular to the arm and aim right at the coil spring we wouldnt have this issue and everyone would be celebrating. Im not up on the science of sway bar design so im not sure if my idea is practical but If everything was left as is and they simply continued the lever on its 45 degree path it would clear the springs and pass right over the link connection of the lower arm. It would allow for adjustability with at least 2 holes and it would clear the steering arm. Maybe that idea is flawed from the science perspective but it would fit the car and look good!

I moved this bar as far forward as possible and cut the ends off the bar and have the suspension loaded. I can dress the end better and add a spacer to get the link vertical then I think its usable for now BUT I would want to replace it with a revised version once they are available.
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Front bar is centered and needs a pair of 1-1/8" spacers plus longer bolts.

Rear bar is centered and needs a pair of 1/2" spacers.

The bars will work but a shorter rear bar by 1" and a front bar with a revised lever and we have a nice upgrade.

Pics to follow.

 

Well, I have my front bar now & I'm more confused than ever.

Newman says his bar is 42" & Doug says his bar is 40".......mine definitely measures 41" measuring from the OUTSIDES of the flat end-link mounting areas?

Anyway, my stock bar is more like 43" shoulder to shoulder where the stock bushings would just start to mount.
Shouldn't we be out in that area to avoid using longer bolts & spacers etc. to get a more vertical end link connection?

 

Ill remeasure, that was an under-the-car on my back quick check.

 

Bar in and clears the spring but JUST!

Like I said, if they just continued the 45 degree angled lever rather than bend the end to aim at the spring we would have a pretty good front bar.
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You would need to add roughly 3-3.5" to the length to clear the springs and get vertical links but I think tire contact would be the next issue under full lock. The solution to me is a new approach to the ends of the bar. We now know why ferrari angled the bar ends they way they did. A 45 degree lever with another 45 on the very pointing toward the wheel to run the bar end like ferrari did would be a good thing.

 

This is very interesting.

Go back and look at the pics I posted with my 40" wide bar. Note the 3/4" spacers. Note the heims are almost vertical

I measured and found that a 42.4" wide bar would leave the heim link vertical, with the heims mounted outboard.

You have a 42" wide bar and say it needs to be 45 to 45.5" wide???? That would put the bar almost into my wheels, with the heims pushed out at some extreme angle, even mounted on the inside of the bar.

On my car, a 43.5-44.0" wide bar would put the heims on the inside of the front bar flanges, and also clear the front factory springs.

Again, and nobody has answered this question: WHAT YEAR CAR ARE YOU WORKING ON????!!!!

Is there a diff in sway bars between years??????

Why are you ignoring my questions and pretending my photos do not exist????????


There seems to be some diff between your car and mine,a nd it is doing nobody any good to ignore this difference, some people are going to have problems, otherwise.


Edit: I went back and looked at my e-mail excahnge with ADDCO, my front bars are 40.9" outside/outside, I suggested 42.4" outside/outside, which soul eliminate the 3/4" spacers on each side. 43.0" would leave heims vertical, and mounted outboard. 44' wide abr would put heims inboard of the front bar, and still vertical.

I had 3/8" tire to bar clearance with my bar at full lock, but that clearance is not at the flanges, it is up by the first bend in the bar nearest the mounting points to the frame.

Doug

 

I didnt say the bar had to be 45" wide I said the bar needs to be redesigned. The car is an 85 308 and the part number for the front bar is unchanged from carbed through to QV

 

Forgive my simpleton questions, but I am new to Ferrari 308 ownership, although I am an experienced driver (autocross, track, etc), I am unclear what "problem" the new swaybars fix. Doug describes the tighter bushings in his original post, but I don't see an other description of the design objectives of the new bars.

Is there something inherently wrong in the factory bars? Are there understeer or oversteer problems? Does the camber change from too much swaying? Is it just that adjustable swaybars allow tweaking to individual handling preferences?

I am surprised how much my 308 rolls over in turns. I keep thinking that this is an intentional design aspect of the suspension where camber increases as the car rolls over. This is speculation: I have no idea. I may be giving Ferrari suspension designers too much credit.

Given a choice, I favor stiff sways and softer springs and have done this on my two E30 BMWs but those cars lose camber as they sway. I am surprised at how soft the Ferrari factory suspension is, although my shocks have never been rebuilt, which definitely affects this.

 

If I follow you, your suggestion is to have the flange with the adjustment holes, at a 45* angle from inside to outside, rather than the 90* angle (flange parallel to wheel base of car) as the bar currently is?


That could work and would provide spring clearance for the factory spring.


Thank you for answering my question.


Now, onto lower control arms, are those all the same through the years? Any chance of manufacturing tolerances coming into play that would cause differences in center to center mounting location differences?

Doug

 

Im surprised you haven't verified the interchange of parts before making these bars, its as easy as looking up the part numbers on ricambi's site. The arms and bars have the same part numbers through the range so the bars will fit all 308 2 seaters (I haven't looked up GT4 arms and bars).

Yes if the bar is left on its straight path after going under the inner tie rod then it should fall where we need it. To know exactly, someone should sacrifice a bar (maybe you) by heating it red hot and bending it to where it should be then send that to Addco to duplicate. If this step isn't taken dont blame me for another batch of incorrect bars.

 

I don't work for ADDCO, I volunteered to use my car as a trial fit since it was available.

They sent me one set, which didn't fit at all. I cut the bars up,a nd made some suggestions as to modifications. They sent me a second set, which did fit my car , but the front needed further modification, which i relayed back to ADDCO, they didn't send me a third set.

My concern is why your rear bar was claimed to so much different in fit than my rear bar, which i posted a pic of, and that the front bar, when modified again, be also able to work with wider than stock rims and tires,and also factory springs and shocks (which I don't have).

I am trying to help find a solution for everybody, you just seem to have an attitude.

Doug

 

Guys, I'm reading through these posts and it's hard for me to determine how many of you aside from Newman are having problems installing these bars.

Doug and I spoke on the phone and it appears that ADDCO did as instructed. What we're trying to do now is have ADDCO ship Doug the revised/final front bar so that he can verify a few things.

On top of that, my car will be in the shop the end of this month to install the bars (among other things), at which point I'll be able to comment on this experience as well as to provide feedback to ADDCO.

Still, what would be most helpful is for other guys who have gone through the install process - both using stock suspension setup and the QA1 setup - to comment on any challenges, etc. they encountered. If ADDCO needs to tweak our bars, I want to get them on it sooner rather than later.

Thanks.
Matt

 

I just spoke with John at ADDCO.

He is committed to doing what's right and to our overall satisfaction, even if that means sending out entirely new bars.

The action item that came out of our phone call is that John is going to ship Doug the final front bars so that Doug can drop them in, measure, investigate, etc. and confirm that the final setup is good, well designed, adjustable, etc. If not, John will revise the front bars and reship to all of us.

Matt

 

Just wondering if anyone else is having a problem. I'm 1200 miles from home and not sure when I will get back home to try the bars.