777 crash at SFO

He's right, though-- the ab initio training, combined with cultural factors which make it very difficult to correct or even disagree with a superior officer, combined further with fatigue and back of the clock operations, are a recipe for disaster.

If it turns out they had a double engine failure, ala BA a few years back, then they are heroes. Anything else was incompetence, pure and simple. Even a single engine failure on short final shouldn't have caused them to crash.

 

Only 1 now from latest briefing.

 

Art is 100% on the money.

I am a pilot, though not a very experienced one. Clear weather, no report of mechanical problems, nature of the crash, all point to pilot error.

And we know about the power distance issue with Asian cultures, and how western teaching emphasizes challenging the captain with authority, and taking over control assertively if the second in command senses a loss of competency/control. This is anathema to many Asian cultures. Ab initio is also a key bone of contention.

Do you have an issue with Art? Seems like you are making it really personal.

 

donv,
I see you are thinking along the same lines as me. Sorry, posted the same thing as you, at the same time as you.

Sad that they seem to have flown through the approach path. And that's a very unforgiving threshold. Kinda like flying into the end of an aircraft carrier.

Would there have been a warning siren/hoot or "Abort, abort"/"Pull up, pull up"? Would it have mattered as the plane continued to settle in the thin air?

 

My issue is that I think it's very premature to be making such claims about the flight training of pilots when we know nothing about what happened.

I would prefer people hold their fire before telling everyone what lousy training Asiana and other foreign airlines have.

Is that too much to ask?

Air France flew straight into the ocean from 39,000 feet. Did we assume it was pilot error and training 2 hours after finding out and tell others to not fly on them?

 

Yes.
1. It is demonstrably lousy in comparison to the vastly more experienced crews on American carriers.

2. You made a caustic, churlish remark about class action lawsuits because Art is a (very successful) attorney.

3. On some boards, Air France crew and equipment were castigated immediately. It always happens. Turns out the equipment maintenance and design philosophy (alternate law) was faulty. Whoever made the claim was correct, premature or not.

So yeah, it asking for a bit much. Wind your neck in.

 

Hard to tell if im confusing threads with tapatalk but Yin said something about known training deficiencies in some of the asian carriers as well.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I317 using Tapatalk 2

 

Go cry me a river...

Maybe we should actually find out what happened first before placing blame.

No...it's Fchat. We just shoot people and then patch up the holes later.

 

From CNN:

"Air traffic control audio -- between the airport's tower and Flight 214 crew members -- suggested that those on the ground knew there was some sort of problem, promising that 'emergency vehicles are responding.'"


Mark

 

Bob:

The failure to declare an emergency is telling. Tells me they screwed up. Visual conditions can't blame the instruments, if they lost the motors they would have declared an emergency. What's left: stupid pilot if you're not a pilot you probably don't understand why this is so obvious.

Art

 

They'd already crashed by then.

Art

 

Actually, I don't disagree with you on this. It does look this way to me also.

But, I think placing the blame is way too early. And, blaming ALL pilots and ALL AIRLINES who have similar training is way, way too early.

 

Gotcha, thanks.


Mark

 

I am a pilot and there are circumstances when you are 100% wrong. Even with a co-pilot, the number one rule is fly the airplane. Everything else is secondary, including making an emergency call when you only have a few seconds left to fly the airplane and it will become obvious soon enough to roll the equipment.

However, data shows that the vast majority of crashes are pilot error, regardless of ab initio or not.

 

I listened to that audio. That was after the crash.

 

You're right but usually in a commercial situation one flies the other talks. NBC says from the info they had that he had a tailwind got too high over compensated powered up and raised tge nose causing the tail to lower then the impact. Glide-slope wasn't working so all visual. Definitely pilot error. My partner was going to be on that flight but he wasn't which is good. Been telling not to fly those Asian airlines he's finally listening.

Art

 

That form of training is bad. Talk to Bob Callahan about his impressions of pilots trained like that. You learn when you fly. You make mistakes an learn from them. This type of training avoids that-learning process. Not good.

Art

 

First of all I'm happy there wasn't more fatalities. If you're ever in an accident and you serve the crash you must get out of that aircraft ASAP. Do no look for you luggage, your caryon you must get out. No time for old people in the way climb over the seat if you have to but you just get out. The aircraft are all certified to evac in 90 seconds with half of the doors inop. Anytime you have an emergency evac people will twist their ankles and break bones but if you get backed up in the aircraft and it catches on fire you will die.

Art not all Korean pilots are ab initio some come from their military (that might not be good). Oriental culture makes the captain god and the co-pilot will defer to his captain (which also not good).

So, it's ether mechanical or pilot error.

Both engines could have quit from fuel starvation (it does appear that they took a much longer route then the flight plan showed) or possible ice like BA in LHR.

They where basically on a visual approach but they may have still used the auto pilot to help them. If they selected to arm the auto pilot to capture the ILS system but forgot that there was no glide slope the aircraft would capture the localizer but never find the glide slope because there was none. The aircraft would just continue the descent program that it was on. But the crew (I think it had to be a heavy crew) should notice the VASI light signal. The VASI would go from all white (too high) to green (perfect) to red (not so perfect). Maybe they didn't look out the windows and when they found themselves to low to late and tried to apply power it really was too late.

All this is just guessing at this point but those passengers should feel very lucky to be alive. Sadly their luggage didn't make it.

 

Can someone briefly explain that type of training? I've done a bit of google searching but can't seem to get through the clutter. Thanks!

GT

 

They take someone without any experience and in one or two years turn them into a "professional" pilot. Versus, getting a license, then an instructor's rating, then flying crap plane delivering freight, then working for commuter airlines, and finally getting hired by one of the majors. Takes 5-7 years to learn the trade.

Art

 

Picture 4yr college at Embry Riddle or Ohio State or some other major aviation college, then another $30,000 outlay to pay for your flight training, then become an instructor for several years at near minimum wage to get your hours up to 1500 so you can get your ATP, air transport pilot cert, then go to work for a commuter or regional for $30k a year if you're lucky, then maybe to a major at maybe twice that, again if you're lucky, with a ton of debt to repay. I almost went this route. Came to my senses a year out of college.

 

No most ab initio guys come directly from a 4 year collage, no aviation background or training.

 

A crash picture taken by a passenger clearly shows people with their carry-ons and wheelie bags. Oh man, imagine getting stuck behind someone fumbling about for their luggage as the cabin catches on fire.
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Wow that's amazing. I wonder if they knew the plane was on fire.

You know, in a lot of Asian airlines, the passengers get up from their seats not long after the touchdown to reach for their over head luggage. On a lot of flights the flight attendants have to announce in Chinese to sit down. I see it all the time but a lot of asian airlines just let it go on.