777 crash at SFO

I was having a discussion with a co-worker about this crash and he mentioned there were four pilots in the cockpit, is this accurate? I always thought there were two pilots plus the flight engineer, I could be wrong.

 

It's not about you. Stop making it personal.

It IS correct. If a certain predisposition or attitude or form of training is deficient and can lead to accidents, it needs to be eliminated, not rubbed on its belly and told bedtime stories and brushed under the carpet.

Overly deferential, timid, unassertive behaviour IS deadly in the cockpit.
Memorizing answers to pass exams rather than being an aviator IS deadly in the cockpit.
Responding to criticisms and correction by letting the trainer go IS deadly in the cockpit.

And yes, EVERYONE like them is unsafe in the cockpit. This is a cultural issue. So EVERYONE who shares these cultural values is unsafe in the cockpit. Are there Indian or Pakistani or Thai or Malaysian or Singaporean or Chinese or Korean pilots who listen to juniors and create an atmosphere of affirmative teamwork? Yes. Are they sharing in the cultural values that are deadly? No. Are they in the minority? Yes. Stop focusing on the word EVERYONE. It's a generalization. And it happens to be true.

 

Curious about this also, but like you can't think of any reason not to start evac immediately after the plane ground to a halt.

That 90 second delay does at least somewhat explains why some people had their carry-ons. Not that I'm defending lugging a roller bag with you off a burning plane, and stewardesses should have been instructing them not to but it's understandable that some people would try to get their belongings while waiting around for 90 seconds.

 

I can think of one reason to delay a few seconds, but not 90.

It would be prudent to figure out which doors are safe to open before just immediately opening them all. The forward right door had an engine jammed up against it on fire. I noticed they smartly did not open that door.

 

As if your first post in the thread, asking if Art was "Preparing your class action lawsuit already?" wasn't a pot shot for your own amusement. I don't remember anyone losing their **** and threatening to quit F-Chat over that.
Relax dude.

 

Bob:

Unless there was something that showed that the throttles were impaired, i.e., incapable of working, the causation of this is pilot inattention. There is no other explanation. With essentially three pilots in the cockpit, supposed to be watching the store, a failure to monitor altitude, airspeed is inexcusable. We pilots are taught that from the very start of our flight training. After you've been taught to climb and turn, they then teach you about slow flight and stalls. You are taught to feel the difference between regular flight and slow flight, and what is called getting behind the curve. All of those skills are taught at the very basic level. What occurred here is something you'd expect from a student pilot, not one with 10k in hours, that's why the outrage from the professional pilots, andd those of us who fly.

Art

 

Is the the Volt thread?

 

on long flights a relief crew is on board in addition to the regular crew, this was a 12 + hour flight, so they had a relief crew on board... also there was a check pilot on board grading / observing pilot performance... total of 5 seasoned pilots...

 

Three were three:
Lee Gang-kuk, "flying" pilot (but not "PIC" accd to the NTSB since he was in training)
Lee Jeong-Min, instructor pilot (first time)/co-pilot (PIC)
Bong Dong-won, "relief first officer" sitting in jumpseat (claimed to have been yelling "sink rate" well before the crash)

I don't believe "flight engineers" have been part of a crew for some time, perhaps since Concord?

Wiki's entry for the crash is filing up quickly:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214

 

Well said

 

Blinded by stupidity more like.....Nice excuse, wonder how long it took for them to think that up. Or maybe they have a "Book of excuses" that covers all the mishaps

 

All 3? BS

Art

 

Maybe the "bright light" was the PAPI's turning red.

 

LOL! That's it!

 

No, it was the bright light at the end of the tunnel of his career.


Mark

 

One reason that I think that the FAA should add a requirement before takeoff and landing, along with seat belts fastened, tray tables stowed, seats not reclined and electronic devices turned off, for all window shades to be up.

If a plane crashes on takeoff or landing, the extra time needed to verify conditions outside if a number of the shades are down - not uncommon on a very hot and sunny day - could cost a few lives.

 

And now I have to apologize. It seems that FO Bong Dong Won(really?) was rather strident before things got out of hand on the conditions of the flight well before the accident. I said he was no better than a sack of concrete, and that appears to be in error.

I apologize to him unreservedly. If he had been in the position of the flight controls, I suspect we would not be discussing this accident now.

 

I was on a flight from DEN to SAT (San Antonio) last year that did exactly that.

They asked everyone to raise shades when we pulled back, until after TO.

Then again before landing.

 

That's been the standard on every flight I've been on domestic, international on many carriers in many countries.. along with the usual tray tables up, arm rests down etc.. I believe it's to do with safety as passengers/crew can see immediately outside if/as needed in case of trouble.

 

Having read all of this for days now - I just have this comment that we may have missed during all the pilot error speculation...

The aircraft really did a remarkable job of taking care of practically every one of the passengers given the violence of this crash. It was a bonafide crash; not just a "hard landing".

The news was speculating the other night that in fact one of the two girls killed may actually have been run over by a rescue vehicle rather than killed in the plane.

I guess that when you have pilots this stupid, you really should have an aircraft structure that good.

 

Oh baloney. I said that because Art was the first one to throw out the "all pilots suck" card.

Give it a break.

 

Did you guys hear the latest, 20 minutes for the rescue vehicles to reach the scene. So what we have are pilots who can really fly and rescue workers who don't show up until the emergency is over. But the emergency vehicles did show up in time to run over 2 of the injured passengers. Sounds like the rescue workers would have been better off just not showing up.

 

I thought you said the guy in the right seat, ( check pilot) was worth no better than a sack of concrete. What's changed ?

I think the whole crew are about as useful as an ashtray on a motorcycle.

 

The fire department spokesperson is saying that this "perceived" 20 minute time delay was because they ordered all the ambulances to "stage themselves" in a staging area and the passengers making the frantic calls could not see them in the staging area.

I am calling BS. The passengers were frantic because nobody showed at the wreck to help them for over 20 minutes. I doubt that they would have felt one bit better if they had been able to see all the ambulances standing around in a parking area instead of being at the scene.