David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

No, you're completely missing the point.

It's not about looks but what and how it's done to the car. That's already public knowledge.

 

And how would this second number be an odd number as opposed to an even number?

Best,

Jack.

 

You could always simply contact Ferrari yourself and ask them their official stance on 0858.

 

0858 does NOT have a second chassis number or any odd number.
It has 0858 and always had.
603 is a TYPE number and has ZERO to do with a chassis number.
Everything else is complete nonsense.
Also, when the car was at RM in Maranello 2009 NO "second number" or "additional number" was found. Nothing. Zero.
The ONLY difference between the factory and RM was that the factory claimed another history for 0858 than what RM did. And this is why RM had to make an announcement.

Marcel Massini

 

and the announcement that was made very clearly stated that the car being auctioned was not a Ferrari P4 but was a Ferrari 350 Can Am.

 

Why would I want to do that? I have no problem with what's being done to the car, Ferrari lost any claim on it the minute they sold it anyway. If they wanted it to remain a Can Am they would have bought it back, no profit in that though.

Besides I am not a buyer, but I am sure any buyers that can afford it will be using all avenues and experts to decide if its the car for them when its finished.

 

If you assume that those you deem to be speaking unofficially on behalf of Ferrari are nothing more than 'detractors of the car' then perhaps an official comment from those that built the thing would add some official 'detractors' of the car?

Perhaps you could ask them why they won't even white book 0858, let alone red book it.

 

This is an interesting statement to make. If Piper has the parts why would he not use them.Where else would they go? Other restorations have had missing parts correctly recreated and considered acceptable. Please explain. thanks tongascrew

 

Thank you.

 

From what I understand Ferrari did make changes in the chassis to accommodate the rear section of the CanAm body and there had to be changes when all the road equipment was removed. However the major changes appear to have been made by Hawkins in South Africa. Except for the rear suspension and much wider rear wheels with the resulting changed body work little else is known or documented.Hopefully Piper and Talacrest will give us more details of the chassis as it arrived at Talacrest and the modifications as found. If anyone can give details of other specific chassis changes made at S.F. please do so. Classiche seems to be unable to come up with anything significant.Any specifics would be most welcome. tongascrew

 

Thanks much. Can you tell us when photo #1 was taken. thanks tongascrew

 

I agree completely and you,if anyone, should know if there was any chance of an original P3 or P4 engine being located. The best that can be hoped for is eather a Classiche reproduction of the original or the best possible restoration of what is available now with the car As the P4 restoration seems to progress unabated the issue of an engine seems so far to be still an open question.tongascrew

 

You need to review what took place at the 2009 RM auction. Briefly the car was presented with chassis #0858. The lawyers then got involved claiming the correct sn was 603 C 350 CAN AM presumably per the records at S.F./Classiche and required this be the official s/n of record at the auction.It's all there. Now if Classiche is claiming that the #603C is not the correct sn for this chassis and possibly just a gearbox number, what sn do they consider the correct one. Of course the 0858 sn had been the original and official P4 number as stamped on the chassis from 1967 until 2009 thru numerous owners. tongascrew

 

Who ever ends up with this car should have a nice thick file of this entire thread for some rainy day reading. My file on this car was about 70 pages until all this started.It's now pushing 120 pages with just a selection of threads.A lot of the mystery surrounding this is that D P and Talacrest aren't saying much. The great thing about Jim is that he took the time, and continues to do so, to keep us up to date on all his Ferrari projects.It's like pulling teeth to get anything out of DP/T. Pictures are nice but....We have our differences but this thread would be nowhere with out him. tongascrew

 

Oh come on now! It has been explained so many times now. THERE IS NO OTHER SERIAL NUMBER FOR THIS CAR! It was serial number 0858 as a P4. It was serial number 0858 as a 350 CanAm. There are seperate tipo numbers for engine (237 and 247) and chassis components (603 and 603C) between the P4 and 350 Can Am. The tipo numbers link the car to design documents. Think of it has a project number. The serial number is the numeric identity of the chassis. There are also internal numbers which match specific components to a specific serial number on the factory build sheets, EVEN IF THE SERIAL NUMBER HAS BEEN CHANGED on the block. Tipo numbers can be cast or stamped depending on the component. Serial numbers are stamped.

As an aside, the SERIAL number 0603 GT was a 250 Boano that was crashed 40+ years ago and has been rebodied as a Pontoon Fendered Testa Rossa.

Since we are making efforts to place correct and accurate information out there, can we at least correct the entire thread title from "Talacreast" to the correct spelling of Talacrest?

 

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/142454474-post1759.html

Do you truly believe so blindly in what you are saying that you continue to deny how wrong you are about this? The experts have spoken.

 

The facts are this is a restoration of 0858 P4 from, on all accounts, a very poor attempt at a Can Am car to the reasonably successful and very desirable P4 it was originall Just look at what's going on.Only in the USA is a case being made for the Can Am failure. Noone in Europe including Italy or the rest of the world or even S.F is there any real case for the CanAm machine. All this complaining isn't going to change a thing.Piper and Talacrest who, for better or worse, know a lot more about the P4 machines than any of us and including me and except, of course, for J G.are going to complete this project.Lets see what other experts have to say about the finished product.They will have the final word which will, I am sure, leave some slowly still twisting in their own wind. tongascrew

 

And just how much original P4 do you think they have to restore 0858 with?

This is a P4 build, not a restoration.

 

Please do tell us how much P4 the finished car will have, in light of the posts about the fact that orginal P4 parts are scarce. You keep going on about the expertise, then why the English wheel body, please do tell us why? Surely the car would benefit from a body made as he other P4's were?

You know, I might get censored for this but no amount of posting of the same old repetitive spin by you will change my opinion, there are NO more 350 Can Am cars and thats what this boils down to, history is history and as someone once said "we dont own history, we merely look after it", like it or not this car left FERRARI as a 350 CAN AM.

By converting this back history has been lost.

If the orginal P4 body was around and being refitted the I would say your argument has merit.

Yes, while we are talking about Facts, its a Fact there are no 350 Can Am's left.

Just thought I would get that Fact out of the way. Of course as you say let the experts be the judge but my opinion will remain the same.

 

I wonder why this is.....

 

This too, is an overreaching and oversimplified statement. There is a huge realm of gray between the black and white positions stated by both supporters and detractor in this thread.

The chassis is without doubt the P4 chassis that raced LeMans in 1967. It is also the same chassis that was the 350 CanAm. That has not been rebuilt and that is important. It seems that it is all of the additional bits that make it more or less of a P4 or 350 CanAm. Yes, an original body has been removed and replaced by a P4 English wheel copy. But there is more to the argument than it is one or the other, IMO. It remains to be seen as to whether this will be a 350 CanAm bodied as a P4 or a legitimate restoration of the chassis to an earlier specification.

Yes, you can say that by doing this the last 350 CanAm is lost. Not doing it means that a P4 has been lost. Which serves history better is open to some interpretation.

 

That P4 was lost once 0858 was converted to a 350 Canam. Back then no biggie, since it was just a racecar about to become obsolete. However, this is (a historical) fact and whatever is happening now to 0858 will not change that.

 

By doing this we lose the last Can Am in existence. However we don't gain a P4. That car was lost in the late 60's. Another P4 didn't magically appear when 0860 was rebodied either.

There will still be only one P4 and that is Stroll's IMO.

 

You can't get around the engine.
The engine is 350 Can Am Tipo 247 NOT 330 P4 Tipo 237.
That is fact.
Advertising this car as a 330 is pure fraud.

 

Advertising this car as a P4 is pure fraud.