David Piper restores the Talacrest P4

That would be great.

I'd get on the phone to Ferrari before that and have them define what they consider the car to be.

Afterall as the creator they determine what it truly is.

I would then take their copy and send it to J.C.

I'll bet you the ads will end up saying this: 350 Can Am rebodied with an non-authentic P4 body.

Call them. Call him. Get it done.

 

The analogy is a bit off since there are 36 GTO's and about 950 GTE's built. A GTO which would be in period rebodied by the factory to a GTE (of that were even possible without fundamentally altering the chassis) and titled as such, would stop being a GTO and become a GTE. The factory can do that. They determine how the materials are used. And if they decide to sacrifice a GTO for a GTE, than that is exactly what happens: the GTO ends to exist and it's remains will carry on as a GTE. A 're-conversion' today would mean a genuine GTE with a fake GTO body. And that is nothing new to the world of Ferrari, but still frowned up on by some. As you can probably tell from my screen name I too feel GTE's should be enjoyed for what they are and cared for for what they are.

Same goes for 0858. People seem to convienently forget that 0858 was a P4 for just a very small portion of her life. She lived practically her whole life as a 350 Canam. Titled as such by the factory. What is also of importance is that the conversion happened in period by the factory, before the car ended it's active racing existence. It became obsolete as a P4 but still had some life in her as a 350 Canam, or so the factory decided upon which they acted. As a 350 Canam, 0858 couldn't be more authentic.

For some people, authenticity matters. In fact, it is the most important aspect of a vintage competitioncar. It is the base of lots of discussion. Should 2735GT have remained with her Drogo-body, even if the Scaglietti-body is widely considered to be more attractive for the eye? Should 0038M have removed it's Vignale body to be 'returned' to her Touring-styling by using a fake, out of period built body? Should 7979GT be freed from her 'ugly' Drogo-body to return to the more attractive classic 330 2+2 shape? When does a rebody need to take place to still be considered 'in period'?

Those questions are not always easily answered. For me, for 0858, the questions are pretty easy. If you want authenticity, if you want to respect the work that was done on the car by the factory back in 1997 and the reasons why, keeping 0858 as a 350 Canam is the way to go. If one believes authenticity needs to take a backseat against looks, than it certainly can be argued that replacing the Canam-body with a brand new P4-body is 'no biggie'. I consider it a 'biggie'. A big mistake to be exact.

 

The car is what Ferrari says it is and they are pretty clear on that point.

The car is not what you fantasize it is.

You can add all the parts you want. Doesn't change what the factory says it is.

 

You don't need to tell him anything. One would assume he understands 0858 is not a genuine P4. It wasn't during the RM Auction in 2009 and a brand new body will not change that.

 

'much of 0858 P4 will exist again some day'

You are privy to what Piper has in spares and what spares the car came with I take it?

 

Pictures unearthed during a little office cleaning. The carbed car is 0844. Thanks Mr G and Dave P for the info!

KevFla
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The carbed car is original 330 Can Am 0844 before it was fitted with a replica 412P body by Symbolic made from part of this body not in the day.

HL sold to ?

 

0844. According to barchetta, sold from UK to Germany 2 yrs ago.
Best,
Dave

 

Good post. And a very likely scenario what will happen to the car.

 

and that is the tragedy of it all. The car will end up with no historical authenticity whatsoever and it didn't need to be that way.

 

Absolutely not. Other than D P I am sure there are but a very few that are privy to these secrets. I know of no one more experienced with the P3P4s than Piper Some will not agree with what he has created in over 50 years with these machines but there is no one who knows more, has had more experience with them or has done more to promote the magic of these very unique cars. Say what you will but Piper's influence on what's happening with 0858 is unrivaled. The main serious detractors of Piper are those who know the least about him.Most people of his ilk have a pretty big ego to go along with their achievments which is often the grounds for some people's criticism. When it comes to these Ferraris Piper kind of wrote the rule book and like all rule books it will have it's detractors. Most of these exhibit their ignorance of the subject more than knowledge. tongascrew

 

Would anyone here be able to estimate the cost of the following by traditional Italian methods by people like Brandoli or Allegretti:

1. Fabricating, installing and painting an entire P4 body including glass from scratch.

2. Fabricating, installing and painting front and rear clams.

3. No. 2 above as well as reinstating the roll over section in the centre, windscreen surround and glass. The original P4 doors and sills are still on the car, and it may also have the original P4 aluminium above the sills, and the areas in front of and behind the cockpit between the cockpit and clams?

 

So how is it that you feel qualified to make a statement like 'much of 0858 P4 will exist again some day' if you aren't privy to just how many actual P4 componants Talacrest have at their disposal?

Piper raced and maintained P cars. It doesn't automatically mean he is an ideal candidate to restore them, nor does it mean he will do so will the upmost respect to traditional methods or historical accuracy. Some seem to merely assume this is the case.

There was a detailed post by NEY some pages back that contained a very interesting line regarding Piper and P car history. It went something like ' The best cars from this era are ones that he has not had his hands on.' He documents 0818, 0824 and 0836 as examples of problemed cars that involved Piper.

 

No historical authenticity??!! 90% of all surviving racers have no historical authenticity at all by that definition, yet many of them are admired on this very forum. No double standards please.

 

What makes you qualified to say that much of 0858 will not exist?In previous posts I have referred to what is generally. known about the car from the fall of 1967 until sold in 2010. Not much is available and that is why my statement leaves specifics to "as much". You are like so many others.If you have information to backup your question say so. Otherwise do your homework and tell us something new. I am sure Ney may very well be correct though he is not specific in the problems with 0818,0824 and 0836. As this thread is about 0858 let's keep it that way. I you wish to start a new thread about D P and these three chassis go ahead. We'll be waiting. Now regarding your "ideal candidate" comment who would be your ideal candidate.There is no single perfect restoration,rebuild or reproduction source available to keep the P3P4. legacy going.So Mr. "self appointed expert'', if there is a better way let's hear it with specifics. Really I want to hear these if indeed you have any. tongascrew

 

You imply Enzo gave his blessing for Piper to do work such as this to P cars. You present zero evidence.

You make statements like 'much of 0858 P4 will exist again some day' and yet provide zero evidence to validate such a claim.

If I am 'like so many others' then you are stood right here next to me.

 

Please name cars that were a 100% authentic but were cut up to make them into something which they are not, that are admired 'on this very forum'. Sn's will do.

2735GT doesn't count. Has always been a 250 GT SWB, regardless of the body.

 

I hope so....

Just cause He's the first A Hole willing to cut up history doesn't make him special?

It's not a question of who could make the best P4. For in Ferrari's eyes and many others 0858 P4 no longer exists.

The dilema at stake is that a real 350 Can Am should not be made into a fake P4.

I have to ask. Do you realize that half the time you seem to be arguing against yourself?

 

Not only did E.F. give most if not all the factory blue prints of the P4 cars to Piper but a huge supply of the remaining spares at the factory. Possibly some day D P will give us a rendition of their meetings. In the mean time to my knowledge E.F. never before or since ever gave anything like this away to anyone else. If E.F. didn't approve of David Piper why would he have done this? There is more to the answer than just David Piper.Issues like the changes in the FIA rules for 1968 are among the possibilities. You may answer this question at any time. It is true E.F probably had second thoughts about what he had done but that came at a later date after the original deal was completed. I agree fully that there are many questions that may or may not ever be answered.In the mean time lets stick with what seems obvious. tongascew

 

I would be careful who you refer to this way.There is a good possibility you could end up at the ''but" end of the same description. tongascrew

 

Its doesn't strike me as obvious that Enzo gave Piper permission to destroy factory Ferrari's in order to profit from it nor does any evidence exist to suggest he did (to the best of my knowledge) and therefore its probably best to avoid implying that was the case.

Piper owned and raced P cars. Enzo gave spares and drawings to him of what had become obsolete cars to Ferrari. A far better case could be made that Enzo did so to assist Piper in keeping those cars in his possession raceworthy than a case can be made that Enzo in any way gave his blessing for Piper to do whatever he wished to any P car or race car, including destroying them.

 

Dont have to search very long.....how about 0860 for starters?!

 

You mean he did not buy theses remaining spares from the father of Paul Hawkins ?

 

I hear ya.

To me the real history of the car has nothing to do with what is being re-created after the history has already happened.

 

All I can say is that this thread is delivering when it comes to entertainment....