I'm truly am sorry with the issues you had and I'm glad everything is working better for you. Don't get offended if you get called a "stooge", pictures of hatchets get posted or you get accused of having an agenda. For some reason, that's how it works in this thread...
I too was disturbed by the juvenile and offensive name-calling on this thread, so stopped posting. But seeing your comment I wanted to say that you are not alone, I've ordered parts to go back to tin connectors on my ECUs. I hope there is still enough loom left to do it. The GCK didn't make one iota of difference to my car, and the pro-gold lobby here has really put me off the kit. We have missed an opportunity for a useful and mature discussion about the way the kit works and why -- which is a pity. I was hoping (and wanted) to be reassured by the pro-gold argument, but the effect has been the opposite.
I'm still convinced that the gold works...Why would DH spend so much time testing & tweaking this product? It's not like there is a huge market for this product. If he wanted to BS people for financial gain he would have come up with aftermarket Honda Civic products... Now I, like many others, are becoming skeptical because of this thread so if we can't scientifically prove how it improves the car, why not have a full documented GCK upgrade complete with data on video so we can post it? There has to be a reason why such an expert chose that material and why it made sense to him...
As with any product out there, proper installation is a key factor. Many postesr in here often ask how to check their oil and they have owned the car for a while. Not everyone is mechanically inclined. Just ask Kettel if this is a job for anyone.
Gerry, what do you say we get this done? Let's see if Dave can supply a kit in exchange for a full video documentation of how much it improves the car and you supply the labor in exchange for advertising your shop. I will benefit from the free kit in exchange for the video production (which is a lot of work and quite expensive) Now all we need is someone to supply the Dyno/smog and whatever other test we can do before and after. Right or wrong we'll have a more concrete answer than just testimonials on fchat....
Again, the issue is not whether a GCK installed on a poorly running car will make it better. The issue is if new gold is better than new tin, and what happens in the future. You are going at it wrong. You can not just take a car off the street, dyno it, install the gold kit and see what happens. That would be like saying platinum plugs are better that iridium plugs by taking a car with old, warn out iridium plugs and replacing them with new platinum plugs, noting that it runs better as indicated by before and after dyno runs, and concluding the result is because of platinum plugs as opposed to new plugs. To even begin to do this right you need to take a car off the street, test it, replace all the connectors with the gold kit, test it, then change all the golds to new tins and retest it. Now you have one data point which is still statistically insignificant, but at least you have a direct comparison of new gold and new tin vs. old whatever. Why is one data point insufficient to make a conclusion? As Gerry said, proper installation is important. Screwing up one crimp could skew the results. That's why a meaningful test will never be done and it will always be a he said, she said argument as to whether correctly installed new gold is superior to correctly installed new tin.
At over $1000 profit on each kit .....you may wish to consider your question again. Does anyone with a Civic have $1500 to blow on 28cent connectors? If you read the other car forums, they think we are insane. Statement retracted....people are free to charge whatever the market will pay. I do believe that this kit is provided by a qualified Ferrari individual/professional and is due the market rate (probably around $200/hr) which should include the product and time to work with customers.
Tim, its when you make posts like this that makes people wonder about your intentions. You can't claim to know the actual profit margin in the kit so why make such a post?
To be honest, the conversation has shifted many times in this thread....I am not interested in knowing if Tin is better than gold. My interest is in finding out whether this is a good idea and a good product to put into our cars or not. Since the product itself and the materials used has been put into question as well as the absence of data, I think a full before and after test will answer many questions and validate the claims made by the so-called stooges and DH himself. I think doing this will help everyone involved and if the car behaves better after the installation and gets better results immediately after installation, we'll only be able to asume that it's worth the time and money.
Tim, as a neutral observer here, I have to strongly disagree with this statement. It isn't fair to Dave Helms that you claim he is making $1000 profit. From what I understand, the crimper itself is not cheap, and eats up a good chunk of the cost of the GCK. I have been one of those lucky ones that got to speak with Dave, and get free advice from him when I had an issue. He was very kind and very patient with me, yet he didn't have to be either one of these as I took him away from focusing on the work in his shop. There are good arguments on both sides of this discussion, but the statement that I quoted you here is not one of them.
If anyone with a Civic had $1500 to blow, they wouldn't own a Civic, they would own a Ferrari. Haters gonna hate, Civic owners and otherwise, so please go to whatever forum they are on and quote me quoting Enzo here (the hating Civic owners are obviously not one of "those lucky few"):
I don't....so I apologize...it could be produced at a loss. So you are right. I misspoke because of a comment that implies that these are magical connectors and that they should be sold in volume to honda civic owners. I think that is a poor analogy and I responded with a similar poorly thought out comment. I do know that JPT timers cost 28 cents. The crimper could be $32 or it can go up to thousands of dollars. Same with the hemostats, qtips, extractor tools etc. To debate this is truly opening pandoras box, and would rather understand how headers on a 355 are 5K. It is whatever the market will tolerate. And make no mistake, sourcing JPTs will take some time, so you have to ask what your time is worth. It will be funny if the GCK is now the TCK....the price is surely not in the connectors. I am also OK if SRI decided to upgrade their kit.
Also, I wanted to post this for a reference for everyone. If you click on the 3rd link there is a 19MB pdf with various connectors. http://www.te.com/catalog/media/en?q=889759 you will see the various types of JPTs (I think around page 35) The last ones in the JPT have the higher clamping force and are made of Tin (SN), Gold (AU) or Silver Te sells nothing....they are just the manufacturer of these connects....so I don't think this violates any rules.
As someone who has developed products and is in process of another product line now, what people fail to see is NET profit, they see gross profit. Well, gross profit does not take into account what we call NRE in my industry (non-recurring engineering). In other words, all the time spent in design, testing, support and plain old jerking around. It's not possible for anyone to calculate what Dave makes as a net, my guess is it's not alot, or anything at all.
A few points here. Im sure Dave would supply the kit but if he is going to put his reputation on the line then he would want to be there and that's hard to do if your in Montreal and hes in Boulder Co. Alex would more than likely pitch in an let us use his shop under good supervision. As John said the test may not prove a lot other that both tin and gold would both make the car run better. But I believe the gold would last a lot longer than the tin pins simple because the clamping force would be stronger. Tin will make your car run better but they wont last long as I said previously. I truly believe that the gold pins will far outlast the tin 3 to 1 in time at minimum. The only way you could do a test that may prove which is better is to take 2 cars and replace one with tin and the other with gold and wait many years to see which one will need to be replaced sooner. Dave looked into this extensively and took years to do it and he spent a lot of time and money doing it. He explained it here years ago and im sure he is tired of it. As I and other have said before....He has too many years of experience to be doubted to the point some have here. I think the only thing that can be said is if you like the idea of gold go for it ( I and many other have done so and have not regretted it) I don't think you can make the care run bad with either connections gold or tin unless you install either improperly but I truly believe that the greater clamping force combined with the high heat makes the gold pins superior.
I think the clamping force thing is really misunderstood. It is simply a spec. Tin and gold connectors can have the same clamping force. It is the underlying material and spring design that controls clamping. The actual connector is typically copper or an alloy of copper. In the limit, gold can have a higher clamping force because it is harder, but since we still have a lot of tin pins the clamping force should not exceed that which is a suitable limit for tin. It has also been brought up that tin is not as good as gold at higher temps. That typically referrers to tin plated directly on the connector. If higher temperature are expected the contact can first be nickle plated then tin. Whether there are problems with the original connectors or not, I have a hard time seeing a clear advantage to new gold over new tin. The mix of gold clamps on tin pins is clearly a disadvantage, whether you agree ot not. In the few places where both clamps and pins are replaced, as I understand it, gold may have a slight advantage. Other than that, from all the research I've done and my tests, it's a wash. Two other points. First, I have to wonder just how big a problem connectors really are. When this started out FBB was posting things like "not a day goes by without someone posting about a CEL." Well since the beginning of this thread I haven't seen a CEL related post. And when I have in the past, it has typically been on a modified car. I.E. one running non-factory cats or test pipes. When I do read CEL posts it's almost always CAT or O2 related. I don't see CELs for the TPS, CTS, CPS, MAP, injectors, .... being reported. Second, just how many F355 have the GCK installed? I'm not seeing a rush to get it done. It really does seem to be a cult thing. I've seen posts from a handful of owners who have installed the kit and defend it to the hilt. Over the last 3 years I looked and over a dozen cars before I bought my car. Not a single one had the GCK installed, to the best of my knowledge. So where are all these cars that aren't running good enough or are throwing CELs frequently enough to motivate the owner to take the plunge? One last thing is that the kit itself is somewhat of a mystery. What does it actually contain? Some pins, some clamps, some boots, a crimping tool. And what does it cost? Maybe I missed it, but I've seen some numbers thrown around ranging from $800 to almost $2000. Why is it that no one will state the actual cost? I'd also really like to see someone layout the kit contents and snap a picture. Or when you buy the kit do you have to sign a nondisclosure agreement? Seems like you aught to be able to see what you are buying before you make the decision to purchase. Why is there no picture of a typical kit on DH's web site? While I have no intension of installing the kit I am curious and would really like to see its contents.
John, I posted the exact price Dave quoted me, it's in this thread. When speaking to Dave about it, I asked him for some detailed information for my review and he was not willing to provide it due to the situation with Ernie. My first turn off was the lack of being able to fully understand what I would receive and not knowing what I was in for labor wise.
Like I said, I must have missed it. I guess I have some searching to do. As for being unwilling to disclose what's in the kit, frankly that speaks volumes. By the way, check out this link: http://kyae.en.alibaba.com/product/493667472-212887080/Bosch_2pin_Injector_Connector_with_boot_EV1_.html Pins, boots, and the connector housing, minimum order 500 pieces at $0.30 to $0.50 each. Not gold, but we already know gold doesn't have a significant impact on cost. So $250 for all the hardware in the kit seems reasonable.
true. so is the often quoted 100 mating cycles for gold. here's a partial chat transcript with a te rep a while back. ( 1m 33s ) di di: is this the part number: 927771-6 ( 1m 50s ) Dale O: yes ( 2m 01s ) Dale O: that is the contact part number ( 2m 20s ) di di: regarding mating cycles, why do the gold ones rated 10x more than tins? is the construction different? ( 2m 57s ) Dale O: Contrucstion of the pins are the same with exception to plating, due to the properties gold, it will allow more mating cycles. ( 3m 33s ) di di: with increase mating cycles, wouldn't gold pins be superior to use in all situations, say with tin connections? ( 4m 37s ) Dale O: The mating cycles is only relevant with the same metal I could not tell you what the mating cycle with gold and tin is as there is no data. It could be more or it could be less. ( 5m 03s ) Dale O: You always want to mate the same plating tin-tin, silver-silver or gold-gold so since the 927771-6 is silver plated the mating part should be silver plated.
No problem Ace , you pointed out, quite correctly I might add, that I should check my responses more carefully before posting. Actually most of us should do that; so for that, thanks AceMaster.
Dave H did say that the kit has about a 97% positive response, which is pretty damn good but it's not 100%. He won't be satisfied till it is 100% so his work goes no to achieve that goal. You stated that it did not make one iota of a difference in your car but did it make it worse? If not then that's a good thing and the downside is that you believe you wasted your money. That part may or may not be true because the kit may help in stopping future problems but I understand that you do not have a reference point for that so there is probably not way of actually knowing that. Anyway, I hope your car runs true and strong for a long time.
