Installing SRI Gold kit today - little help?

Dave is a truly outstanding mechanic and engineer but at this point he is not a great business man. For the amount of time Dave put into developing this kit, if he ever really sees a profit I would be very surprised.

 

I could swear I did say that before but at this point, whatever. The kit in its entirety cleared up all of the problems that I had experienced on and off for years. It was like a minor miracle, the difference before and after were truly night and day, it was that dramatic. And for my car the kit was the only thing that was installed in my car for that difference to be seen and felt. Don't believe it, that's your problem people.

Whether the kit can make that much of a difference in your car, I don't know. Way everything and decide for yourselves but the big question about tin/gold for me is not a issue. Some guys want data showing the virtues of this kit and I want data on the failure time line of gold on tin that many disapprove of. Until then...well you my thoughts.

 

I’m not sure why the obsession with a timeline. As stated many times before, there are too many variables right now for anyone to come up with an accurate one. However, just because there is an absence of a timeline, it does not mean the argument (gold + tin is bad) is invalid. Someone earlier had used an ill-conceived example that in grade school, they placed a nail in some coke and based on this experiment, one should be able to estimate and predict corrosion rate. Let’s take a look at this grade school experiment. What if you change the type of nail, use a different soft drink, use a different amount of soft drink, change location, etc? Sure, you can create a timeline if the variables stay the same but you change one and you can throw that timeline out the window. If you perform enough of these nail + soft drink experiments using different variables, you can eventually come up with a formula that will give you an accurate timeline. Now compare this simple experiment having just a few variables to the gck, which has significantly more variables. Engine temp, atmospheric temp level, humidity level, installation ability, crimping technique, mating surface conditions, how often the owners wash the car, if the car is driven in the rain, salinity level, etc, etc, etc. You can now see that coming up with an accurate timeline is going to impossible unless significant testing is done and outside of this forum, hell, outside of this thread, I don’t think anyone cares enough to perform those extensive tests. It makes no sense to focus on the gck timeline just the same as it makes no sense to focus on when your water pump might seize up, when the wheel bearing grease might dry up, when the leather in your seats might start cracking. Instead, just enjoy your car and if issues pop up, deal with them..

 

I have installed the gold kit in my Testarossa and it made such a difference. The gold kit is a foundation. Puts connectivity issues to bed.. If you car has been molested and hacked so many times over then nothing will help those cars unless everything is brought back to base line.. I love the non believers.. They know ****.. The proof is in the package.. It works.. so many of these cars have been repaired by shoe makers then they expect the gold kit to come in and walla Its all fixed.. No.. Gold kit cannot fix poor mixture settings, clogged cats, wrong or hacked o2 sensors, botched up harness repairs etc... If you have a car that pretty much unmolested then installing this gold kit is a huge improvement.. Timing is also important.. So many guys just lock and swap.. Oh.. gold kit will not fix your crappy ignition wires either.. so.. in conclusion.. based on my experience with Testarossa

1. Unmolested car - Check
2. Fuse Box Mod - Check
3. Gold Kit - Check
4. Taylor Ignition Wires - Check
5. Hopefully your due for a belt service - Set Timing properly - Check
6. Check and adjust mixture settings - Check
7. Drive the crap out of the car and never worry about this bullsh*t again - Check

All courtesy of Dave Helms.. The guy has got his sh*t together.. Stop the hate fellas.. the only failures or issue installs were all performed by mechanical shops that rushed it because they are on the clock.. I did it.. Jim Magee from Pocono Sportscar did my engine out perfectly.. He is aces.. He set mixture as well.. Car was rock solid.

R

 

Chairman.....you certainly went through such a long list of variables...and I agree that ALL will be needed to make it perfect.

But I still think that many feel that by simply crimping on the GCK everything will be better. I will personally use GOLD/GOLD in the engine harness and TIN/Tin on my ECU. This thread clearly demonstrates the good and bad.

Lastly, if you have the electrical and mechanical aptitude.....I'm am for certain that the GCK is not necessary. All you need to know to do the job is in this post. I look at it the same way as a DYI oil or cambelt thread. If you can't do it with the listed info....then its time to send it to a professional. I hope this thread helped others.....signing out. I'll post in the 512tr section when I tackle my mine. I have 2 ecus and nearly twice the motor!

I have bigger things to worry about .....like when my differential might explode. ( TMan ... I might actually drive my car too )

 

You've made my point, there so many, many variables that this gold/tin disintegration issue is invalid...to me.

 

TMan ... I might actually drive my car too )


That's my boy tf-, I knew I could talk you into it. Here's wishing you many happy, trouble free miles.

I believe we have discussed, argued, cussed, and beat this thread to death so TMan signing off. To all, happy motoring; we own Ferraris let's enjoy them.

 

Yep, sounds like an Idea.
Hey Steve, Im heading out that way in Sept. What great things are there to see in Co other than Dave Helms?

 

If you're a sports fan try and catch a Denver Broncos' game.

 

Well there's Kris, and Jenni, and Nikki and....Oh wait, OK that's probably not what you're talking about.

So PM sent. And yes as AceMaster said we do have the Broncos.

 

Well there's Kris, and Jenni, and Nikki and....Oh wait, OK that's probably not what you're talking about.

So PM sent. And yes as AceMaster said we do have the Broncos.

 

I will probably get slammed some how but I think most of us that have Installed the kit found that in most cases it helped our cars are very reluctant to give any information to those who are trying to pick it apart for one reason or another. Also most likely we all discussed many things with Dave either while installing the kit or other subjects in which Dave made no money but was still quite willing to spend a little time helping. I believe and I could be wrong and I don't want to speak for Dave however that he did a lot more research than I am willing to to save let's say 1000 dollars . I would also think that he bought the best connectors at the time my kit was produced. He probably tested the crap out of them and then chose gold because he obviously felt it was best at the time. I know there is no non disclosure agreement but after all the help from Dave I would never screw him over like that or any of the rest of you if you helped me to this extent.

I think I have read most of this thread but I think as stated before that the most important thing is the crimps. Second most is the connectors quality (gold or tin). My Guess is the metal is secondary.

Myself and many others believe highly in Dave's ability, knowledge, and genuine character and in the future if the gold is causing issues my guess is there will be an upgrade for the ecu to go with another metal or different connector that maybe clamps less or more.

I guess at some point it comes down to trust and Dave has never given any of us any reason not to trust him. There are many of these type of guys on here and both him and Daniel at ricambi are but a few we are lucky to have.

If you really want to know what's in the kit you might just have to buy one. You may also find that maybe the connectors that you think are of the same quality are not. For all any of us know he bought 10000 connectors made to his spec. Who knows and really who cares as long as they work for 20 years and 6 engine out services it means more driving and less fixing. Time is money and at this point I have more money than time.

 

I don't think we really need to get into this again, and I had no intention of posting until Ketel finishes up his install, but there is another thread in the Technical Q&A section of corrosion between different metals: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/technical-q/418572-corrosion-between-different-metals.html

As for what's in the kit, I just wouldn't buy anything without knowing it's contents. It like buying a 355 w/o a PPI. I'd put my own kit together. Not that it matters, as I have no intension of doing so, but I was able to source some connectors, pins and boots. Took a Goolge search and 1 email. These include gold plated contacts, the actually connector plastic body and the rubber boot. I was quoted $0.70 each in lots of 500. This was for the 2 pin "injector" connector which would do the injectors, coolant temp sensors and several other 2 pin sensors in a 355. 3 position connectors for the crank sensor, TPS and idle control valve would be in the same price range. This would eliminate the need to remove the contacts from the old connector bodies and reuse them. Just snip the wires, attach the new contacts and snap them into the new connector bodies. You would still need to reuse the old MAP connector body (6 position) and the one for the ECU, but I'm talking under $1000 for parts to do basically all the connectors on about 25 cars and eliminating a lot of the tedious work. So that leaves what ever you want to spend on a crimping tool and a pin extractor, both of which are readily available over a range of prices. Are these contacts as good/better/worse than those in Dave's kit? I guess those of us who aren't will to pay the price of admission will never know. But when Dave won't reveal the contents and those who have purchase the kit also guard it, it sort of says there ain't nothing too special about the parts, at least that's the way to comes off to me.

All that aside, I'm still waiting to see what happens with ketel's car. Problem is, I'm not sure what to expect one way or the other. Ketel said he is not installing the kit to eliminate the CELs he has but to have a more reliable, better running car in the future. If when he is finished the install it still has the CELs and he needs to fix those problems, how will he know if the car runs better due to the kit or because other underlying problems were fixed. I mean, even if you want to make a seat of the pants evaluation you should start with a properly running car, no?

 

And your point is????
Unless you have 25 buddies ready to do the job you have a $700 investment in half the connector types required, no boots, tools, instructions,support etc.
From an ROI perspective, this does not appear to an efficient plan/data point.
I understand and acknowledge your data regarding the different metals presented. Your attack on a company's business strategy appears a bit off base.

 

Let me clarify. Bought in lots sufficient to do 25 cars the cost of all the parts I sourced would be about $40-$50 per car. This includes all the contacts in gold, new boots for all but the MAP and ECU, and new connector bodies (the plastic housing) for all the 2 and 3 pin connectors (doesn't appear you get those inthe SRI kit). So for all the 2 and 3 wire connection everything on the end of the wires would be new. Add in a crimping tool of reasonable quality and an extraction tool for the ECU and MAP connectors and your at about $300/car. So it looks like an ambitious person could put a nice kit together for about $150, $200 max retail, sans tools. Tools could be offered on loan with deposit. Or for those who insist on having their own, just give them the part number and let them purchase it directly. But don't worry, I personally have no intension of doing so as it amounts to nothing but pocket change. I only post this stuff becase I'm old, grumpy and have noting better to do at 7:45AM on a Monday morning.

Now, if you call my comment about not knowing the contents of the kit and attack on SRI, so be it. If I buy the kit and decide I don't want to install it after all can I return it?

 

Before installing your own kit you might have to test the connectors to see if they plug in 100 times without failing. I have worked quite a bit on my car and provided I did all the connections right which so far seems I have I just wanted piece of mind knowing that when I have problems it's taken the plugs and wiring out of the equation. I guess that's also why I did my own engine out over 6 months so I could make sure nothing was rubbing etc. this is mostly because as much as I love my car, when the engines is in it, I hate working on it because everything is so hard to get at and there is so much stuff you have to take off just to replace a component.
I guess at the end of the day I believe in the kit, I understand and somewhat agree with your valuable data and expertise, but afer years of ownership I believe in, and trust Dave more.

Ps. Thanks for the info though because 10 years down the road if I do have problems I will remember to check the main ECM first. I do like that I only have to slid the seat ahead to get at it though.

 

Test

 

I am surprised that this argument is still going on. I posted on page 12

"From what I've read so far in regards to the mating of Gold and tin contacts, the contact resistance is increased only if there is fretting corrosion. Fretting corrosion being friction and material debris and oxidation through vibration or differential thermal expansion effects.

http://www.te.com/documentation/whit...df/p316-90.pdf

If there is no fretting, there is no issue, or am I missing something here?"


I still see constant posting regarding the "science" behind mating gold to tin is bad and if anyone cares to do the research, most of this "warning" against gold-to-tin is because of a study Intel did years back indicating corrosion in circuit boards. Yes, it is true, when you mate gold-to-tin, the tin tends to corrode faster. However, what you are forgetting/failing to see is that poor clamping or poor crimping is a factor in most industries, so it is possible that instead of investing in better connectors that provide nice solid clamps, it is simply easier to "advise" against mating dissimilar metals. So in general you have people from numerous industries simply advising the same. It is the simpler solution.

From my understanding, SRI GCK provides high quality connectors with great clamping force that deters/eliminates fretting corrosion based on feedback from the customer base that have used and installed it properly. Simply stating , "Gold to tin is not recommended by the industry" is a flawed critique of the kit, although the science you are stating is merited.

There is NO study concluding Gold to Tin is bad when a good clamping force is applied. No one has done that study. They're too busy going with what they were "advised" in regards to mating dissimilar metals. Yes, BMW had recalls on some gold to tin connectors, but did they use connectors with enough clamping power (as good as Dave's?) Perhaps SRI's customer base IS the study and so far, the results have not been negative.

Why was gold chosen? Perhaps Gold to Tin provides a better contact than Tin-to-Tin, leading to better reads, hence better performance. Is that so hard to fathom? Perhaps it is more durable than tin. Perhaps the only good connectors on the market come in gold.

If the SRI kit performs well for more than 10 years, it's worth the price to me. Dave is selling a solution, not simply connectors. That is the "value" the market sees. If anyone knows anything about business and setting prices, he would know that the price of the product/service is determined by what the market is willing to pay, not the cost of the components and a set profit margin. Dave is free to set whatever price he wants. If you don't think the price is right, then just simply walk away and be content with it. If you want his prices to come down, the only way is to offer a competing solution at a lower price. If Dave doesn't want to lose that market share, he will re-evaluate and perhaps lower his price... IF he wants to of course. From my understanding, when people are buying an SRI gold kit, they are buying a package of customer support, easy to understand instructions, proper tools, quality components, and a great track record of making customers "happy" with few regrets of spending the money. He is selling you the convenience of not having to research and figure out yourself. Everyone has their own value system and some might think it's worth it and some might think it's not. You can critique someone's asking price all you want, but that's not how you play the game. If you really want to challenge someone's asking price, put together your own solution and offer it to the market and then maybe your critique will have some credibility.

 

Well said! All the I am right and you are wrong, seems non productive in this brotherhood.
Really looks like little kids fighting over a lollipop.

 

Best summary post in the whole thread.
And yes Dave looked long and hard to find the proper clamping force. It simply could not be found in a tin connector. If you read carefully on the net they also tell you that tin on tin is very bad in high heat conditions IE: 355 engine bay. The higher the clamping force the better the connection and the less likely that you will have a problem. Hey, Dave went through all of this and it took years.

 

I have no idea why I am bothering to response. but...

Yes, galvanic corrosion.

Better connectors/bad crimping does not imply anything about connector plating. A bad crimp is bad regardless of whether the contact is tin or gold. This has been discussed and there is no argument that bad crimps or corrosion between the wire and the terminal may be an issue. But it's unrelated to contact metal.

Again, clamping force is misunderstood. That gold connectors typically have higher clamping force is because gold plating on the contacts is harder than tin and the gold can withstand the higher clamping force. But when you use a female gold terminal with a male tin pin the higher clamping force may actually be detrimental when the number of cycles is considered. This is because the higher clamping force caused greater friction during insertion and the tin plating will wear faster than with lower clamping force. This is one of the reasons lubricants are recommended if gold on tin can not be avoided.

Tests have showed otherwise but they continue to be ignored. G on G is best, T on T in the middle and G on T is the worse. Is it so hard to accept the data that shows that? Why do people continue to reject all the literature which has been sited here?

Understand that I really have no horse in this race. And it's not about who is right and who is wrong as far as I am concerned. It's about specific facts on one side and testimonials on the other. There is no inconsistency between them, one does not preclude the other. One is a warning of potential to do damage, the other is reporting of corrected electrical problems. All I see is that some of those on the testimonial side are offended by the idea that there is any damage potential and some on the warning side have gotten the dander up in response.

I do find it somewhat hypocritical when I see the price of the kit defended. I am certain that if the same kit was offered for the same price in a yellow box with black horses on it there would be all types of cross reference threads and group buys, etc., to avoid the Ferrari Tax. It is absolutely correct that the market sets the price, but in this case the market is divided into several factions. One of those are follows of DH who will pay what he asked as long as it seems reasonable in "Ferrari" terms. Others may pay the price because they have a problem and believe this the only "solution" where no other exists. And yet others, like myself, will look at it as an over priced, cult product and will look for other solutions should any of the problems the kit is supposed to address arise in our cars. And again, DH followers seem offended at the idea that and equivalent kit with either G or T contacts could be fashioned from off the shelf products at significantly lower price.


It's just two sides of a story.

 

Not sure where you guys are getting the info that the gold pins have a higher clamping force than the tin ones. I guess since Dave said so, it must be true? From the manufacturer's own website, the tin, silver and gold contacts are manufactured exactly the same. Same exact insertion force, extraction force, contact resistance and retention force. It’s on their website and not hard to find. The ONLY difference is the contact finish but hey, if it makes you feel better to imagine that gold has higher clamping forces, go for it.

 

Here we go again.....

 

If you look for it you will find it. The mating cycles of gold are 10 fold that of tin.
The GCK connectors will last beyond 100 mating cycles.
Tin connectors average 10 mating cycles. This is why some have had recurring problems when replacing tin on tin with tin on tin. Gold is used because it creates a higher clamping force. The higher the clamping force, the less fretting that occurs. After reading even AMPs site, they admit that their testing is not conclusive. They also admit that tin on tin has lots of fretting corrosion.
So again, I would go with the GCK again and again as the results of many who have installed this kit is very conclusive.

 

mating cycles have zero correlation to clamping force. that’s like saying since gold looks prettier than tin, the clamping forces must be higher. The gold ON gold, not gold on tin is what allows more mating cycles, not the clamping force of the pin. again, read the MANUFACTURERS website on the specs of the pins and don’t believe everything you are told