Maserati Bora - Picture Thread

I am considering making some wheels in a 17" x 8" size with the correct offsets that replicate the factory wheels using the factory hub caps. If it happens, I will take pictures of the setup and post them.

Elliot

 

Honestly guys do the tire availability study before you decide on 17". While I think it may be the best look I have to wonder what will be left in that size soon that would would work on these cars.

I think if one was to scan an original wheel then you might be able to stretch that scan digitally up to 17 or 18 inches for reproduction into a mold via a 3D printer.

 

Elliot, the wheel project sounds really interesting. Are you considering making a wider variant for the rear?

Bob, I looked into the tire sizes and right now, 17" tires in the sizes you mentioned seem to be well supported. There are about 90 types available in V or above ratings. I'm sure you're right that they'll begin to fade away. I think the 16s look even better, but as RIK600 says, you're down to pretty much a single choice now. The problem is where do you stop? My cheap 6 year old sports car has 18x8 wheels and my even older Corvette has 19's and 20's. It's not just diameter - big cars have tires too wide for a Bora.

I have the subframe out of my car at the moment, which allows me to stick wheels/tires I have around into the opening to see how they fit and look. Ignore the wheel style, but here are two pictures of a 275-45-18 on a 10.5" rim. With extremely careful calculation of the offset, they might just fit without ripping out the fender lip on the first bump, but smaller would probably be better. Still, to me the rim diameter looks too big for the car.
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The photoshop simulation of the 17" original style looks better but ... how do we know that's actually an accurate representation of what 17" original style wheels and available tires would look like? It might be a fantasy? I'm not saying that's intentional but just asking?

Also, not a fan of your modern wheel selection there so that might be swaying my opinion but yes, it looks perhaps a bit too Conestoga wagonish.

No easy answers as all the tire sizes slip away ... I'm just not an XWX fan. I don't even think they look good on the car but they're original and expensive as bloody hell.

I'd go for some recreation tires of the Michelin XGTs but I don't think they were ever an original tire (in the sizes we would need) for any car so fat chance of that ever happening.

All you would need is some 1/4" spacers for the rears and the original rims are just fine with me. Sigh

 

There's also so much black area in the wheel wells of that particular photo that it makes it hard to see the definition of the tires's diameter with respect to the wheel well opening. It looks nice to me too but I think some other photos could help gauge it more accurately?
Not sure the hub size is that big a deal but I see what you're saying. Thanks for doing this.
It shows promise!

 

The photoshop work was a really quick job. It was done by taking just the wheel part of the picture, expanding it by 18/16 (diameters of the visible part of the wheel) and then plopping that back on the car. So -- the wheel is definitely not correct because the hub area is also expanded. That's equivalent to a 146mm bolt circle - no wonder it looks funny. On the other hand, the tire diameter is the same as the original picture. The question is whether tires can be found that match the original unloaded diameter of about 26.9". A 235/55 is 27.2 and a 255/45 in the same brand is 26.1. There may be better choices, but it will take some study to find out. There are still lots of sizes and brands available in this general area, even counting only the V through Y speed ratings.

Regarding the Z06 wheel in the picture - right, that's definitely the wrong style! I'm just grabbing what's around that will illustrate various tire sizes. I also don't have any sophisticated way to set the height in the wheelwell, just a couple of wheel dollies. What tires I have left are mostly either too old or too new but I do have a 235/55-17 I can bring from home tomorrow.

I think Elliot's plan is the ideal - keep the hub area the same in order to allow the use of hub caps and expand the rim. Back when I was semi-seriously thinking about this, I had hoped to design the CAD program to allow building everything from the hubcapped Bora through the two Merak styles up to the five bolt Kyalami and QP3 from the same basic design. Then I realized that at the rate I get things done, this would happen so far in the future that there would be only one Bora left.... mine, still waiting for me to finish the water pump replacement.

 

Hello staatsof,

You are right, the car looks much better with bigger Rims, but to be honest, 17 or even 18 inch might look a bit too modern...but there are nearly no 16 inch rear tires available.

On the front, the car has 225/50 16 tires which fit without any problems. You can get many brands in this size.

i found three possible rear tires:
-That Kumhos in 265/45 16.
-Michelin 255/50 16 Tires for 600€ each.
-a cheap "Nexen" tire in 245/50 16.

The Kumhos got a lot of grip; the stopping ability is insane for such an old car!

even the speedo seems to work korrekt, though you are right, the diameter is a bit smaller than with the original tires.

maybe it is because the tires don't walk as much as the original ones because they have smaller sidewalls and so the "real" diameter is bigger than the calculatet?

For the last decades, the car war fitted with Pirelli P7 tires in 265/50 16 and 225/50 16.

The rims are BBS RS123 and RS124.

You can find them in this list with all dimensions:

http://www.wokke.de/BBS-RS-Liste.htm


Hendrik

 

Oh I don't think yours look any worse it's just the tire availability. Those Kuhmos are on their way out over here.

Like I said, I'd love a set of the Michelkin 60 series XGTs. They were the right diameters, performed very, very well and looked great too.

 

some new 15inch pirellis...

P7 CORSA Classic, Motorsport tyres - PIRELLI INTERNATIONAL

gr4 campy replicas look fantastic too bad they dont come in 12inch yet for the period gr4 look

 

What use are those here?

 

not sure what you are getting at?

much like the michelin TBs they are road approved rally tires in 255 50 16.... a descendant or predecessor of the classic P7 depending how you want to look at it.

 

None of those sizes work.

 

i wasnt aware that you spoke for everyone on this thread...

hendrik found three tires sizes that he thinks may would work, just throwing another performance oriented 255 50 16 for him.

at the very top of this thread RonS runs this size in the rear also. looks to me to be a perfect fit much better than the tail between the legs stance of narrow rear track on a standard bora.

if one can find a proper front accomadating front tire, anyone here thinks this 255 50 16 size would be inferior to the stock xwx 215 70 15 on all 4 corners?

 

Now don't go and get your panties all in a bunch. I'm just stating the facts. That tire is an inch shorter in diameter. You can do that if you want of course but I thought the goal was to set a rim size and then find the right size tire? The car was tuned for that diameter and the speedo was calibrated as such.

Or am I wrong?

 

I think you need to be careful about changing the diameter too much. Apart from the speedo error you are changing the ride height and behavior of the handling. Go wider by all means but not smaller in diameter. You will also be opening up a larger wheelarch to outside of tyre dimension

Try differing tyre sizes in this tyre calculator and it will tell you how much you are changing the diameter. Anything more than 3% and its a big deal!!


Julian

Tire Size Calculator - Tire & Wheel Plus Sizing

 

For what it's worth, my Porsche 968 daily is very sensitive to changing wheel and tyre sizes compared to what it was original developed and tuned for: 16" with 7J front and 8J rear. You need to have an adjustment done to the front assy for 17" tyres. Without that adjustment there is a lot of tramlining. I experience that with 16" winter tyres (perfect ride) and 17" summer tyres (a lot of tramlining on irregular road surface, but excellent on most European tarmac-ed motorway and secondary roads).
Furthermore, tyre brand is important, tyres with relative soft sides producing less tramlining than harder ones.
I would not be surprised if other cars would have similar issues, and I would not simply change wheel and tyre sizes without having this sorted out first.
I have not yet figured out how tramlining works. Anyone?

 

my panties are in the wash since im menstruating right now...

you are not wrong; however if the goal is to find the a set a rim size that the car was tuned for then use the correct 215 70 15 xwx. wouldnt be the simplest solution? fact or am i wrong?

fact 2... somebody here is running 255 50 16. he seem mighty please with them.

fact 3 another poster was looking into this 255 50 16 size for the rears.

nearly all of these 70's vintage italian cars with jaeger/vegila speedos were hardly accurate but just mere suggestions on how fast you are traveling.

Replacement performance tires for these xwx cars are limited. i was just offering a possible alternative.

 

Didn't I say you can do as you like? And people do.
I remember a lot of people running around with these GT Maserati's having 235/60-15 on all four wheels. It just looked too small IMHO (is that better)

Possibly having a tire that's a lot wider than 235 at that diameter gives it a different look?

I thought we were trying to match the diameter as close as we could that's all.

 

other than the odd appearance and increase speedo error, all things being equal, going a smaller size within reason wouldnt alter handling much. im my experience there are some notable benefits. ... less wheel inertia and unsprung weight due to a smaller and lighter tire, lowering the cars CG without altering the suspension geometry (most cases when lowering the car through its springs the roll center may fall below ground level plus inadvertently changing the camber curve charateristic). you can add better response and increase wall stiffness due to the lower aspect ratio profile.

different tire manufactures measure their tires differently. its not uncommon to see tires of the same size vary over an inch in diameter that alone can be a 2% difference. If memory serves pirellis and bridgestones historically are much smaller in both width and dia say compared to a BF goodrich or michilen.

now i dont think 3% change in speedo error is such a big issue especially when these vintage italian machines are aready off 15 percent or more at 100mph! if you look at the tire size of an early merak is listed 185 70 15 Fronts (though most meraks ive come across or driven have 195 70 15 in front and 205 70 15 rears). Compare it to the bora 215 70 15 there is much more than 3% difference. the difference of the 215s are 6.6% with 185 and 4.3% with 195 according to the tire calculator. as far as i can tell the front half of the meraks wheel wells and suspension arms are the same. now does anyone here feel that smaller tires makes the merak an odd looking car or an inferior handling car ?

on to the rears... meraks 205 70 15 are 2.1% smaller than the 215 boras. A 255 50 16 is less than an inch smaller than the standard bora dia. The thing is you may need that extra height clearance depending on the offset and on how low or stiff you set up the car with much wider tire.

Don’t get me wrong I have no beef with old style tires. I personally prefer the way the tall period performance rubber xwx, Dunlop SP, CN36, P7 , gatorbacks, TA comps, , phoenix stradelflex (spelling? remember these great tires?) etc tires look over the modern tires. many of these tires simply haven’t been available for years in a plus 1 or 2 application. finding a suitable replacement... well thats the on going challenge.


Respectfully

 

I'd like to add to the Fire! Warning! Purists please do not read the following.

I am currently running 16x8 [sportmesh design] BBS wheels on my Merak SS. I have had this wheel/tire combination for over a year. Pole Position Potenza high performance tires all the way around. Each wheel is 18 lbs light and rated for 1000 lbs. As the size/offset are the same for Boras and Meraks, I would like to add my 2 cents worth.

These wheels/tires are a match made in heaven. Let me be clear, they look awesome and period correct. While the OD has dropped by 1 inch all the way around [26" for the rear and 25" for the front] the speedometer reading difference is insignificant. I have had the factory specified 27" OD rear tires. I can absolutely say that unless you are in the museum time piece frame of mind, that size looks painfully antique.

Tire size for the rear is 245x50x16 and for the front 225x50x16. The handling improvement is fantastic. These wheels will be available for sale shortly as final details are being worked out. You can see this wheel on my Merak at http://www.merakgroup.com/ in the gallery section [yellow Merak SS].

By November I hope to post a video of the car on the Atlanta Motorsport Park F1 track promoting the wheels on the Youtube Merak Group Channel.

You can pm me either through the website or via FChat.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Ciao,
George

 

Bridgestone doesn't show any tires like that on their website (Tire size for the rear is 245x50x16 )

What am I missing?

Tire Catalog | Bridgestone Tires

 

i see a little of car in the background... more pictures please!

cheers

 

It's the fourth frame from the top in the right column. That's all I have right now as Euro headers are being fabricated and the Merak is somewhat dismantled.

The planned track video will very much highlight the wheels at speed.

Ciao
George

 

No problem with getting bigger wheels from my side, just wanted to try and get people to see if the tyres out there could better match the original diameter!!

Check these out...old images but the Bora does look great on bigger rims...I think the fuller shape over the Merak really works well
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