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Pump will not start when open the driver door, car will not start

Discussion in '360/430' started by dj39355, Sep 18, 2013.

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  1. dj39355

    dj39355 Karting

    May 22, 2006
    116
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    Jostein Ferkingstad
    #26 dj39355, Sep 24, 2013
    Update:

    Received new pump unit and relay from the Ferrari dealer today, unfortunately the relay was wrong type but we manage to temporary repair the old one.

    1. Removed the electro motor from the new unit and replaced it with the old one in the old unit, prior to this both pump was measured, old one show 0,05 ohm and new one above 3 ohm.

    2. Insert the repaired relay and new 30 A fuse and put power on from the luggage compartment, the pump start prime automatically

    3. Managed to put the gear in neutral :) but car won't start, seems like the start engine get a signal but will not turn, everything else seems normal in the car, no error codes, but anyway a big improvement since the car is not longer stuck in gear.

    4. Where is the start engine located, can it be stuck ? Or any good advice(s) ?
     
  2. Skidkid

    Skidkid F1 Veteran
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    Aug 25, 2005
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    John Zornes
    #27 Skidkid, Sep 24, 2013
    Good work and glad that part is sorted.

    Do you have the alarm fob and did you use it before trying to start the car? If so, did the alarm disarm? If you don't know about this process do a quick search. There are literally over 100 threads on the alarm and fobs.

     
  3. English Rebel

    English Rebel Formula 3

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    #28 English Rebel, Sep 24, 2013
    Yep, I did that a couple of times then smacked myself on the forehead. Of course if the alarm module got wet (behind the drivers seat) then it too could be inhibiting starting. Do you have a flashing red light when you get in to start it. If so does it go out after pressing the fob button? These simple things are easy to overlook when you are in the situation that you're in.
    Alan
     
  4. dj39355

    dj39355 Karting

    May 22, 2006
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    Jostein Ferkingstad
    #29 dj39355, Sep 24, 2013
    The alarm system seems to be working OK, at first when I came home and start troubleshooting (6 days ago) the module was totally black and no flashing red light at all, to start with I believe this was the problem.

    Read several treads in this forum and use the fob and repeately press it and the system came back to life.

    Today is was flashing red and disengage by the FOB. By looking at the starter motor location it could be that it has been submerged in water for a while....
     
  5. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    Curt
    #30 vrsurgeon, Sep 24, 2013
    Ah reviving a car that decided to go for a swim..

    For starting the car the money is behind the seat.

    If you haven't, turn off the power and undo the big fat red power cables behind the drivers seat.
    Then slide off the 3 plastic wire connectors on the metal panel beneath it (they just slide out towards the middle of the car)
    Then take the four 10mm bolts out of the metal panel that is beneath the red power cords. Remove the panel. On the back side of this is the alarm and immobilizer. Unplug them and let those components dry out if needed.
    Ignore above if you've done this.

    Note, there is a little connector with two grey wires to the left of the big red wire + box on the panel. This is the starter disconnect that goes to the F1 relay. What this does is prevents you from cranking the starter while in gear. Remove and clean it, or jump it to test the starter and eliminate the relay as a cause.

    Now, on page 4-24 of the car manual check relays 84, 85 and 86. Make sure they are dry and working. 84 basically cuts out the starter if the charger is connected to the car. If shorted, this will prevent your starter from turning. In addition, relay 86 will not engage the starter if toast. remove and use a 9V battery to check operation. Diagram on the relay will tell you if its normally closed or open.

    Ah electrical.. fun right? :)

    Was the the car in 8 to 10" of water? If so, you push it up on plastic ramps, undo the 10mm bolts that hold the undertray on and the starter is right there. The line into the starter can be tested with a 12v light or LED to check if its getting juice when you turn the key.
     
  6. Trent

    Trent Formula 3

    Dec 10, 2003
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    Indialantic, FL
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    Trent
    #31 Trent, Sep 24, 2013
    You have solved your first issue from the water damage. I have no doubt there are many more to come. Your starter issue is #2.
     
  7. dj39355

    dj39355 Karting

    May 22, 2006
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    Jostein Ferkingstad
    #32 dj39355, Sep 24, 2013
    Thanks,

    Will look into it tomorrow in daylight, difficult for me to say how much water it has been in the car, but I dont expect it was more than 2" above floor level.

    It sound like the starter get the signal when turning the ignition key but fail to crank (hopefully my english is understandable).

    To make the electrical issues a bit further complicated, the instruction book might be different on US and European model ?
    4.24-4.26
    84 +30 Top
    85 + 30 Windscreen wiper
    86 Rear Fog light.

    By reading the Workshop manual Modena 360
    84 Cut-out of start-up with battery charger.
    85 Devices
    86 Start-up

    This could be an "nightmare", but anyway I believe it is solvable and I am pleased that we manage to get it into neutral, should be easier then to get it into an transport car and do a proper check, but it would be more easy if I get the car started.

    Anyway Thanks for all the assistance !, been an existing day without to much time to think about anything else:)
     
  8. dj39355

    dj39355 Karting

    May 22, 2006
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    Jostein Ferkingstad
    #33 dj39355, Sep 24, 2013
    Find the equivalent relay number for the european model 87-88-89.

    One "stupid" question maybe, will 84 Cut-out prevent the car to start if a battery charger is connected to the main battery in front of passenger seat?
     
  9. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    #34 vrsurgeon, Sep 24, 2013
    No, it's for the factory charger connected in front of car by hatch/ access panel below windshield next to brake fluid reservoir.

    Btw, mine is a euro car as well.. Relays are the same.. Lazy Italian electrical engineers. :)
     
  10. dj39355

    dj39355 Karting

    May 22, 2006
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    Jostein Ferkingstad
    #35 dj39355, Sep 24, 2013
    Thanks:)
     
  11. vrsurgeon

    vrsurgeon F1 World Champ
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    #36 vrsurgeon, Sep 25, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Per my PM..
    Starter relay connection is in the car at this connector and can be accessed by these two pins. Connect a test light to the side coming from the relays to see if the starter relay is getting start signal. Add power to the pins in the connector with wires going to the back of the car. IF the starter turns with power.. then the relays are bad. If no turn but the test light lights.. then the starter is toast. Good luck!
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  12. dj39355

    dj39355 Karting

    May 22, 2006
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    Jostein Ferkingstad
    #37 dj39355, Sep 25, 2013
    A big thank you :) Very much appreciated :) :) :)
     
  13. dj39355

    dj39355 Karting

    May 22, 2006
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    Jostein Ferkingstad
    #38 dj39355, Sep 26, 2013
    Update :

    Starter checked by mechanic today, some water ingress, and the starter was partly stuck, moved and cleaned and tested OK. Car started as before, and test run and everything seems perfect :):) Thanks to all for advices, especially to Vrsurgeon (Curt) and Trent which have sent me PMs to assist me, Greatly appreciated!

    Kind regards from Jostein
     
  14. dadswrld

    dadswrld Karting

    Jan 4, 2010
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    #39 dadswrld, Sep 26, 2013
    Nice to hear you got things sorted out and she's running again!

    Threads like this only prove how invaluable these forums and their members are! Cudos to all of you who takes the time to assist others. Whenever I get my own ride I won't be afraid to ask for help here.
     
  15. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

    Jun 14, 2009
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    #40 FerrariDublin, Sep 26, 2013
    I've been reading this thread with interest but didn't comment because I have no experience of your F1 pump problem. Delighted to hear you have managed to make your car operational again (with the assistance of good members here).

    Did you have to bleed the F1 system or was the pump the only place that air got in?
     
  16. dj39355

    dj39355 Karting

    May 22, 2006
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    Jostein Ferkingstad
    #41 dj39355, Sep 26, 2013
    I read on this forum and also by PM and other places that the pump was almost indestructible
    and the common failure was the electro motor. We measured the old electro motor against the new and there was significantly different (old one short), decided to replace the electro motor only to avoid bleeding the system. There was a nice video "how to do it" on youtube:) which was significantly easier to follow then the 3 pages I got from the Ferrari workshop!

    In the aftermath it would have been much cheaper to buy a electro motor from ebay then the complete unit, but "you always learn when you go along", anyway without this forum the "DIY" will almost be impossible.
     
  17. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

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    #42 FerrariDublin, Sep 27, 2013
    Ahh! :) Drive motor only replaced, therefore no splitting of the hydraulic system and no need to bleed. Very Good, thanks for the clarification! :)
     
  18. dj39355

    dj39355 Karting

    May 22, 2006
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    Jostein Ferkingstad
    #43 dj39355, Sep 27, 2013
    I also use the below thread and some other to get some tips, the below thread have link to youtube etc. A fantastic forum with a lot of high competency people which are willing to share their knowledge. The search possibility is very good as all:) This will be ago odd weekend for me, sun is shining and car is ready:)




    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/360-430/422605-messed-up-f1-pump-motor-stuff.html
     
  19. dj39355

    dj39355 Karting

    May 22, 2006
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    Jostein Ferkingstad
    #44 dj39355, Sep 27, 2013
    Two different procedures, I used the last one. I would have save 75% of the cost by buoying
    it from here:) This is from the thread which I copy in my last post to you.

    F1 Pump Electric Motor Part 213264 M Maserati GT Coupe Spider 2002 Grand Sport | eBay
     
  20. dj39355

    dj39355 Karting

    May 22, 2006
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    Jostein Ferkingstad
    #45 dj39355, Sep 27, 2013
  21. FerrariDublin

    FerrariDublin F1 Rookie

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    #46 FerrariDublin, Oct 1, 2013
    Well done again. Your updates and experience will be of use to others I'm sure.
     
  22. English Rebel

    English Rebel Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2013
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    #47 English Rebel, Oct 1, 2013
    I though that you were going to take the car to the Ferrari dealer to have everything checked out or did you surmise that it had dried out okay and there will not be any problems down the road. After all your insurance should cover whatever is needed to put it back into goo order -- right?
    Alan
     
  23. dj39355

    dj39355 Karting

    May 22, 2006
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    Jostein Ferkingstad
    #48 dj39355, Oct 7, 2013
    You are absolutely correct, I drive the car this weekend and delivered it to the Ferrari workshop for a technical check and also for removing the seats and floor mats to ensure it is completely dry.

    7 hrs drive, no alarms, but better to be "safe than sorry" :) The insurance company was in agreement with this as well, but it was significantly more easy than the start point when the car was not starting and locked in gear. I work on a rotation basis and enjoy the trip:)

    I will go back to work tomorrow for 3 weeks abroad, hopefully I can pick it up after this, but that is depending on the road condition, maybe winter by then, time will show, alternative is transport back by "truck".

    Best Regards from Jostein
     
  24. English Rebel

    English Rebel Formula 3

    Aug 13, 2013
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    #49 English Rebel, Oct 8, 2013
    Good luck and I hope you've found a better location to store your car.
    Alan
     
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